Elsa, will you PLEASE go to bed?
Arrrggghghghrrhghghgrhrhhrhrggghh!!!
It’s getting to the point where if I had a dollar for every time I blogged about the trials and travails of bedtime, I’d have enough to buy a…well, OK, a pizza. But a really good pizza with lots of toppings. And maybe a Greek salad on the side.
I mean jeez, when does this end?
Elsa is going through one of her phases where she will not stay in bed. She gets up repeatedly for an hour, even two hours after we say good-night and turn out the lights. Sometimes she asks to use the bathroom, or for a drink of water. Sometimes she actually just gets up and turns the light on to read or play (and Clio, to be fair, is sometimes a co-conspirator in this). But eventually Clio will conk out, and it’s just a fidgety Elsa, claiming she can’t sleep. Or as she sometimes (very cutely) puts it, “I just can’t do it, mom!”
I’ve tried leading her wordlessly back to bed every time. I’ve tried telling her that if she comes out of her room / turns the light on again, she loses one of the toys or books she’s brought to bed with her. I’ve tried telling her she can sleep anywhere in the room she wants — on the floor, in the rocking chair, etc. I’ve tried rubbing her back and giving her visualization scenarios: “Imagine that you are riding on a boat with billowed sail, perched on Puff’s gigantic tail.” (Puff the Magic Dragon is HUGE in our house right now. Even bigger than Maria ever was). “Where are you and Puff going? Close your eyes and think about where you’re going…on the calm, calm sea. Rocking, gently. Gently. Back and forth. You’re getting sleepy. Very sleeeeepy…..”
All of these things have worked in the past at least once. But they are just not doing it lately. We used to have a childproof doorknob on the inside of the door to physically keep them in the room (a source of much controversy when I wrote about it here….) but we took it off a few months ago because it seemed like the girls had gotten better at staying in bed. I’m tempted to put it back on, but would rather not.
I’ve actually been reading 1-2-3 Magic lately. (More on that in a future post, to be sure….) But even that doesn’t really have a great solution for bedtime — especially not for very little kids. One suggestion is to park yourself in a chair in the doorway of their bedroom with your back to the child (or children) and don’t talk to them, no matter what. If they get out of bed and come to you, lead them back to bed silently.
I tried this last night and have concluded that the author must never have actually tried doing this. Otherwise, he would realize that 1.) The child will probably not stay in the bed when you lead them back there. 2.) Not talking to his child when they are whining that they can’t sleep / want to read / need another drink of water / etc., will lead to major melt-down behavior. And if he thinks it’s possible to quell a tantrum without any talking or any consequences and/or if he expects that I’m supposed to silently, physically restrain my very spirited child until she is done losing her shit — all while also not talking to her sister, who will probably be shouting at me, meanwhile, that she dropped her stuffed monkey or something — well, he’s got another thing coming. Specifically, a deluxe pizza and a Greek salad.
However, I do intend to try this approach again tonight if needed, because I got nothing else left. And to be fair, maybe it takes a few times to work.
Actually, said author, Thomas Phelan, is about to post something on his blog about bedtime strategies, and I’m sort of dying of suspense. Either it will be The Answer that I’m looking for, or it will be a sure-fire tactic that I will eagerly try and that will fail in an epic way. In either case, I will be sure to report back here.
And now, I’m going to go take a nap.
But before I go, a reminder: send me your photos of the weird things your kids do with toys, and I’ll post the wild and craziest ones here! jane (at) janeroper.com
* * *
fan of Baby Squared on Facebook for updates when new posts are
published,
bonus material and that whole virtual sense of community thing.
Join my mailing list for very
occasional
news about my writing elsewhere — including my novel, EDEN LAKE, to be
published in 2011 by Last Light Studio, and my memoir, BABY SQUARED,
about the
first three years of parenting twins, to be published in 2012 by St.
Martin’s
Press.
Have you tried sarcasm? Guilt trips? Ok, it’s never worked for my almost-three-year-old twin, but it sure does make him pause for a second to stare at you crazy-like. I say helpful things like, “Are you serious? It’s 9! I need some time alone! Awesome. I love tucking you in all night. Maybe if you stay in bed you won’t have to hear loud Mommy that you don’t like.” That’s about when my husband asks if my mom can come over any time this week so I can have a break.
My five year old just went through this exact same thing. I am a HUGE fan of Dr. Weissbluth (Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child). He is a proponent of the silent return. But I get your concern about dealing with the child silently. Before bed:
1. State the bedtime rules. 1. Stay in Bed. 2. Be quiet. 3. Close your eyes (we didn’t use this one).
2. Explain that “if you get up, I will put you back in bed. I am not going to talk to you. I am not going to give you hugs and kisses. I am just going to walk out and close the door.”
3. Then do it.
I just sat outside of the door. The first night I put her back into bed for about 20 minutes. Then it slowly reduced over the course of a week. Then it was solved. She realized that it futile. I think waiting outside of the room was good because she didn’t get very far.
Good luck. It just pretty much sucks but it passes. Even when you feel likt it won’t.
Did you ever read the Mrs Piggle Wiggle books? I remember a story about kids who wouldn’t go to bed so she essentially had them stay up all night but they still had to get up early in the morning. Eventually they started putting themselves to bed. That’s kind of what we did with our kids. That, and we realized we only had trouble putting them to bed if their bedtime was too early.
That, and Ian was inspired by a car ad where a guy is watching a couple of kids for some friends and all he does is run them on treadmills and up and down inclines. The kids are passed out by the time their parents pick them up. Ian sometimes will just take them out and run the kids ragged at the park or come up with races at the pool so they can barely drag themselves to bed when we get home.
Those are all my ideas gleaned from pop culture.
And I agree, the silently leading them back thing does not work with a kid in full tantrum.
Our three year old doesn’t go to sleep on time most nights either and we just let him play quietly in his room and eventually he tucks himself in. Our two girls share a room and when the younger one can’t sleep she has a magnadoodle with a light on that she draws on until she’s tired. I guess I have enough nights where I can’t make myself sleep that I don’t try to force the issue with my kids. As long as they stay in their rooms and don’t disturb anyone, I kind of leave it to them. Probably a horrible plan according to experts, but it seems to work in our house.
Good luck to you! Few things are more frustrating to wrestle with.
Maybe she temporarily needs less sleep?
At the moment, I let my 2.5 yr old just wander around until he’s ready to go to go to sleep. When he’s tired, he falls asleep in four minutes. When he’s not, he’ll rolls around for an hour (and wake up his older brother AND drives me nuts).
He apparently needs an hour *less* sleep then his four year old brother. Or maybe the little one just naps more effectively at daycare then the older one does at preschool. Who knows …. I started this approach about 6 months ago and my quality of life (ah hum, time to get stuff done at night) has improved drastically!
Once in a while, I feel guilty and try to make him go to bed on time but then I end up losing an hour and getting stressed out. And then I remember to count up the number of hours he sleeps at night and during nap and realize he’s just fine and I should just keep following my instincts (but not my cultural norms and certainly not my family’s norms!).
Oh, I measure that they get enough sleep by seeing how much longer then normal they sleep on weekends. Neither really sleeps more then 15 minutes longer so I figure I’m fine at this moment.
First of all, in response to Korinthia, I LOVE that car ad. It’s a Volkwagon ad (the only popular ad I’ve ever seen that stars an Indian (as in East Asian) family, and the wearing out really does work. The nights that we have run around the backyard screaming like banshees (at our daughter’s suggestion), the kids have conked out quite impressively.
Second, as Heather said, Dr. Weissbluth says you have to keep doing the “return to bed” thing until it work. In some of his examples in his book, someone returned their kiddo to bed something like 123 times. Yikes! (the kid was out of bed every 2 seconds or so, I guess)
And last, is a later bedtime for just one girl possible? Would Clio get mad if Elsa got to stay up later? Just curious.
We are still doing the doorknob covers with no plans to change. Sorry I need my sanity and they need their sleep. Do you have separate rooms to put them in? I heard this stops a lot of the above problems. We don’t have the space but would take advantage of it if we did.
We just let ours pal around in there till they fall asleep. They have toys in there and it is childproof so they are safe. They will freak out by fighting or something every 30 minutes or so and we go in a referee and then leave again. Repeat till they fall asleep. If they get very crazy we tell them to settle down or we are turning off the nightlight and taking their loveys. That usually settles them right down. Just the threat of following through on that freaks them out enough to make them settle down.
Mine are not allowed but one potty break after bedtime and otherwise they have to go in their overnight diaper. It does not negatively effect potty training. They can have water if requested but if they drink it all gone, tough luck. Sometimes we let them run out and grab a toy to take back to bed if they ask. But in the end I think the whole WE are the ones in control of when they leave the room is what makes us keep our sanity.
Last week our 6 year old started having bedtime troubles again (related to anxiety at school, I think), and I remembered a tactic that we used a couple of years ago (that miraculously still works!).
Basically, I told her that she is not allowed to get out of bed after I tuck her in, but I promised her that *I* will come check on *her* every ten minutes until I see that she is asleep. That way she won’t have to get out of bed if she needs something (drink of water, etc.) – she can just wait until I come in to her room and ask for it then. I also explained to her that getting out of bed actually makes it harder for her to fall asleep, and that her “job” at night is to relax in bed and fall asleep, even if it doesn’t happen immediately. On the first night, I had to go check on her four times. The second night, I went back twice. Every night since then, I have gone to check on her after 10 minutes and she has been fast asleep.
This only works if you really go back to check, because you never know when she will actually fall asleep, and if she can tell time and sees that you aren’t back, it can backfire. But since we are down to checking only once, it’s not really inconvenient. I usually just put my feet up for ten minutes after putting her to bed, then check on her (only once now because she is always asleep), then get on with my evening activities around the house.
Also, we always make sure that she has gone to the bathroom right before bed, that her cup of water next to the bed is full, that she has all of her “loveys” that she sleeps with, that her fan is on, etc., so she won’t have any acceptable reason to get out of bed.
It also works best if you move bedtime (temporarily) about 30 minutes later so that she is really tired and falls asleep quickly.
I have no idea how this would work with two in the same room, but it has worked for our singleton quite well and quite quickly.
Good luck with whatever you try – nothing is more frustrating than a child who won’t go to sleep! (Except maybe two children who won’t go to sleep.)
OK- so politically incorrect I’m putting on my flame retardant dressing gown. One word- well actually two- liquid melatonin. 0.5 ml. It has helped us get back from hell plus jet lagged lunacy to a much more sane bedtime. I used it for about three weeks in total- not every day…the kids like it so much they were asking for it! Combine it with the rules etc and so far so good. OK- we still wake up 45% of the mornings with 50% more people in the bed- but that’s OK if bedtime means bedtime!
Also- booklight for you- read a book, or wireless, catch up on email whilst on sentry duty!
Just to add my two cents…
Elsa (from the blog posts I’ve read over the years) sounds a lot like my son. And we have had lots of bedtime issues with him. But we eventually came to realize that he physically could not fall asleep until 930 at the earliest and usually more like 10/1030 if he napped. Even if the nap was early (like 1230). Even if the nap was only 30 minutes (though he usually would nap more like 1.5 hours). After many months of this routine, I finally made the executive decision (and reading the Weissbluth book helped too — because he says this is okay in this sort of situation): we gave up the nap. Did this around turning 3. Now he’s almost 3.5. Sometimes he is cranky in the afternoon but he goes to sleep — falls asleep — usally very quickly — between 6 and 7 and at 530 on the days when he seems cranky all day and like he needs more sleep. He will sleep 12-12.5 hours and while I miss the break that his nap gave me, I’m willing to give it up for the free evening I now have. Just something to consider. All kids are different. I can’t remember the exact statistic but I think something like 50% or more of kids give up the nap between age 3 and 4. Oh and we explained the situation to his preschool and they were fine with him not napping and just reading books or whatever during the rest/naptime.
Totally feel you about the misery of sleeptime battles.
I have a three-year-old and a one-year-old who share a room and bedtime is a battle every night. For months, I ended up staying in the room with them for an hour while they fell asleep so one or the other of them wouldn’t wake up the other one yelling or crying for me. But — I have just started doing the “I will come back and check on you in X minutes” (for us it is three minutes to start with) and it’s working great for the three-year-old and seems to be okay for the little one.
Oye! That sucks. I have had the same experience that others have: if my 3 year old naps it takes him hours, sometimes, to fall asleep. I’m talking midnight, sometimes, if he gets riled up. If he doesn’t nap he’s out like a light at bed time (8:30ish). I can’t remember if Elsa is still napping…
As for the getting out of bed thing, I’ve never had to deal with that: my kid still calls me to open his door when he wakes up in the morning, even though he’s been out of his crib for almost a year. But, I am a big proponent of positive rewards. Think of something (or let her think of something) nice that she can earn if she stays in bed all night. (Of course it has to be something Clio can have too if -she- stays in bed too!) Maybe you’ve tried this already? Sorry, if so. I am really a firm believer that positive reinforcements work better than punishment (and of course, have to come immediately after the challenging behavior: i.e, first thing in the morning.)
I read somewhere once (here on Babble maybe?) about a woman who told her kid that if she got out of bed, she had to clean. Maybe that’s not a bad idea? Make getting up really unfun for Elsa. Just give her a broom and tell her to get to work! I would be highly amused if you did this, so you should try it at least once.
Then again, what do I know? There’s a reason my almost 3.5 year-old son is still in his crib. I am dreading dealing with this situation.
OK, a raised glass to the ladies who suggested sarcasm/guilt trips & cleaning. Love it.
I really like the idea of saying I’ll come back in to check on her. I may give that a shot.
Re. naps — some days Elsa naps, other days she doesn’t, but it doesn’t seem to affect whether or not she can sleep. I think she’s just in a rut because she’s now *used* to this idea that she can’t sleep, so she gets all wound up.
I did the whole lead-her-back-to-bed wordlessly thing again last night, while I camped out in the hall outside the bedroom with a book. It went on for approximately 1 hour and then she seemed to be asleep, so I went downstairs. Half an hour later she was up again, and I found her hanging out on the toilet with a book. (The light in their room was on, though somehow Clio seemed to be sleeping right through.)
After she did her business, I brought her back into her room again. And again. And again. She finally fell asleep around 9:45.
Tonight, they have a sitter b/c we’re going out. She can deal with it. Bwah ha ha.
@ Amy F. I think that was my post about making my kids clean. Starting at about age 4 that’s our rule, and it seems to work. I’ve gotten many towels folded that way. If my oldest can’t sleep and she comes out of her room she doesn’t even pretend there might be another option. She just shows up at my side and says, “What should I clean, mom?”
Ah, Korinthia, that was you! I’ve suggested it to many people, gotten lots of wide-eyed and enthusiastic responses. I’m now thinking about getting Benjie a bottle of Windex for his fourth birthday present.
You’ve probably tried a variant of this, but I’ve found that a you-are-getting-very-sleepy story works a lot better when it’s cleverly disguised as an interesting stay-awake-for story. With my budding astro-vulcanologist (don’t ask), my latest invention is, “The sun put a blanket on Mercury. The sun said, “good night, Mercury. The sun put a blanket on Venus. The sun said, “good night Venus.” “Etc., etc., all the way down to “Pluto’s best friend Sedna” if needed, but Noah’s usually out like a light by Jupiter. Of course, now that I think I’m so, so clever, this will probably fail miserably tonight, but I do think there’s something to a boring story about a fascinating topic, delivered in that paaainfully sloooow, hypnoootic siiiing-soooong voice that we aaaaaall haaaave maaastered byyyy nooooooow….. Ya know?
My kids are much older now, but, my husband I both still laugh when we reacall when we tried to just lock ourselves in our room and let the kids do what they want. They were 3 and 4 at the time. They got up, realized we (the adults) were serious about staying in bed. They got snacks and juice and proceeded to watch really poor television. They watched Dating Game and then the Newlywed Game…thankfully, they realized it wasn’t all it was cracked up to be and they went to bed. We of course kept an ear out the entire time from our room. Was easier to do because at that time we only had one floor of living space. Good luck with the girls.
we went through this with olivia recently and i read somewhere, who knows where, this cool strategy which I laughed at but then IT WORKED. I don’t know if it’s been mentioned because I am super busy and can’t read the comments, but wanted to share.
Put the kid to bed and tell her you will check on her in five minutes. And actually go back in five minutes. Repeat. Do this over and over again. It literally took us two times the first night, one time for the following three nights, and we have not had a problem since.
My theory is that it works because it allows the child to relax knowing you are coming back. When they relax, they can fall asleep. My kids are always tired when I put them down – but use excuses (and sometimes loud singing) to keep themselves awake. On nights when they don’t seem like they are going to fall asleep on their own, I do this. And it has worked. The key is actually going back in five minutes (or whatever time schedule works for your kid – maybe it’s just two minutes)
I hope it works for you too!!
Some kids just don’t need a lot of sleep (I have two of them). We have been pretty lucky about ours being willing to actually stay in bed, or at least in their rooms, but it’s rare around here for everyone to be asleep before 10, and it’s not unheard of to find someone still awake after 10:30. It kind of sucks in terms of, hmm, privacy, but there you go. We leave the three-year-old’s reading light on until it sounds like she’s starting to wind down, and only then do we require actual sleep attempts, so maybe that helps her stay in bed, I don’t know.
I tried to be all cool and go-with-the-flow about bedtime. Yes, you can read by yourself. Just turn off your light and go to bed when you’re done. “But Mommy, I CAN’T TUCK MYSELF IN!!!” “Yes you can.” “No I can’t! AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEE” So that didn’t work.
We tried holding dinosaur oatmeal over his head (you know, figuratively). That worked some days.
In our effort to regain control of our home from the 3 1/2-year-old we sat down with him and wrote 3 easy-to-remember rules. Bedtime has its very own rule which is as simple as “stay in bed.” I think because he helped compose the rules, it’s more important to him.
Try recording you reading their faveiorite book on a tape recorder, then just put it on low-volume and set it to repeat. That should keep her more entertained so she’ll be less likely to get up.Or get one of those nature sound CDs. Hope this helps!
My munchkin loves company. If someone is in the room, he simply won’t go to sleep, even if he’s trying. He hasn’t managed to nap at preschool yet, though we’re hoping that once he really settles into the routine (and stops getting sick every week) that he’ll figure out how. He’s 4, but he really does need his nap most of the time. So he’ll beg for us to come back into his room to protect him from bad dogs, etc. (which is another story entirely) and we’ll have to put our feet down and just say no. Sometimes it takes a few visits before we can do that — he’s just too wound up.
When we switched to a toddler bed, all it took was a few intercepts as he tried to get out of bed or out of his room, and honestly, he’s a very good boy and now stays in bed. It sometimes means I have to get up in the middle of the night to fetch a tissue from the shelf, but overall it’s a good thing.
All this is much easier with a singleton, I should think! But both the visit every few minutes method and the camp outside the door method have worked for us.
I love the idea of cleaning, though. I’d absolutely do that with a wanderer!