Butt out, Mommy.
As if to cruelly, maliciously mock the fact that I complained to the internets about how we were having bedtime challenges of late, the girls took it to a whole new level the night before last: Clio came into our room at around two a.m. saying she couldn’t sleep. We brought her (silently! Wordlessly!) back to bed, she came back again, we brought her back, rinse and repeat. And repeat. And as if that wasn’t pleasant enough, Elsa soon woke up, too. My friends, they were up until 5:30 a.m., alternately whining, crying, playing, fighting and making unecessary trips to the bathroom. It was hell. And they didn’t even have the decency to sleep late once they finally fell asleep.
But that’s not what I want to write about here. What I want to write about is something that made me feel much less hateful more tender feelings toward my children — a conversation I had with them over breakfast the other day, about preschool.
They seem to be loving their new teacher and their new class. They’re fully back into the swing of things. But apparently they said something strange to Alastair when he asked how they liked the other kids in their class: they said that the other kids didn’t let them play with them. And yet, they didn’t seem in the least bit bothered by this fact.
He also wasn’t sure how reliable the information was, three year olds not being known for their ability to differentiate between one-time occurrences and generalized ones. It was entirely possible that on just one particular day two particular children said the girls couldn’t play with them, and that was that.
But I was curious, and a
little concerned, so I posed the same question to them the other day before taking them to school: How are the other kids in your
class? Are you making friends?
Clio replied, quite matter-of-factly, “The other kids don’t
let us play with them.”
“What do you mean?” I asked. “Do they say you can’t play with them, when you ask?”
“No, they just don’t let us,” she replied, happily eating her frozen waffle. (And I mean, literally, frozen. That’s the way they like ‘em. I have no idea why.)
“Does it make you sad that they won’t let you play with them?”
“No,” she said. “I like to play by myself.”
She really didn’t sound sad, but I was pissed. Who were these asshole kids who didn’t want to play with my daughters? Why not? Was it because they were twins? Did they seem clique-ish or something? Was it the way I dressed them? Was it because I put their sandwiches in tupperware containers instead of ziploc bags? Were the other kids intimidated by their obviously superior intelligence? Or were my children just big, huge dorks? Or bossy, grabby pains in the ass?
“Do all the kids say you can’t play with them, or just some of them?” I asked. Thinking, maybe there were one or two bad apples.
“All of them,” Clio said. “But Davis lets us play with him.”
Great, I thought. Davis. He’s probably going to grow up to be the kid who wipes boogers on the inside of his desk and, when he’s older, sits in the back of the room and draws pictures of medieval weapons on his notebooks and makes little battle sounds under his breath.
“Well,” I said, in what was to be my first-ever lame piece of unsolicited parental advice, “if you want to play with the other kids and they’re not letting you, you should tell them that that isn’t nice, and they should let you play with them.” (Jeez, mom, thanks a lot.)
Elsa chimed in, “They let me play with them sometimes because they like me better.”
Insert knife into heart, twist. This has been a secret fear of mine: that Elsa, being quite outgoing, will have no problem in social situations, and Clio, being much more reserved and, well, a little quirky, will have trouble making friends. Or even get made fun of.
“That doesn’t sound very nice, Elsa,” I said. And then, to Clio, “Maybe the other kids don’t know you want to play with them. Maybe you should just….go and start playing with them. You don’t have to ask.” (Yes, more ass-vice from mom, who clearly isn’t going to just let this drop.)
After some more unsucessful attempts to get at what was really going on I pulled the ultimate dumb/annoying parent move: “Do you want me to say something to your teacher about it?”
Now, Clio snapped to. “No, don’t tell the teacher.” She sounded suddenly older. Quite certain, and quite confident.
I was — and still am — impressed and a little puzzled by her reaction. It takes a certain sense of perspective and maturity to tell your mother that you don’t want her interfering on your behalf. Or even to perceive that maybe this isn’t a good idea; that it might end up being embarrassing in some way, or get your peers into “trouble.” Or that it would mean getting pushed into a situation you don’t even want to be in. Maybe she really was happier playing by herself.
More to the point, it was such a complete change in tone and awareness from the conversation we’d been having up until that point, wherein she’d just sounded like her usual, slightly oblivious and completely innocent three-year-old self.
I assured her that I wouldn’t tell the teacher. And we moved on to other things. But a few minutes later she said it again, with quiet urgency: “Don’t tell the teacher about the other kids.”
Maybe I shouldn’t be telling you this, either.
The whole conversation — and that particular turn of it — made me feel suddenly, keenly aware of the fact that my daughters are starting to have their own little lives, with their own little problems to solve and situations to navigate. It also made me realize how unprepared I am to provide useful advice when it comes to things like social situations. Not because I didn’t have problems of my own, but because, well, what do you say? Kids can be jerks? Find friends that aren’t jerks? Hang in there, when you’re grown up everything’s going to be fine?
Most of all, it made me think about the fact that even if I have the world’s greatest advice to dispense to the girls as they venture out into the world and encounter heartbreak and disappointment and loneliness and all the rest, they still, ultimately, have to figure it all out on their own. They have to find their own way. And even though it goes against all my protective motherly instincts, I have to let them. (As Clio has already, wisely reminded me.)
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Wow, Jane, you have just touched on several of my personal third rails of parenting. Kids being cruel to my kid. Wanting to intervene, but wondering if I should and then being told by my child in no uncertain terms to stay out of it. (I’m drafting a blog post on that one even as I write this comment.) Reminding myself that part of what makes my kids such cool little people is that they have lives that include pieces of which I’m not aware. And wishing desperately that I had advice to give to resolve that tough social situation, but realizing that I no more know how to fix it now than I did when I was going through it myself as a kid.
My husband reminds me sometimes not to project my own emotions onto my kids. “Maybe these things just don’t bother him as much as they did you,” he’ll say with respect to my son. Yeah, maybe. It’s entirely possible. So I try to keep that in mind, but I also want to be sure I’m seeing the things that are really there.
I will say that sometimes, I do overrule a privacy preference. Sometimes my kids just aren’t old or mature enough to make a decision or deal with a situation on their own. But I don’t do that without a lot of thought and I always explain to them the reasons for my actions.
Overall, the best advice people have given me, over and over, is this: just make sure that your kids know you are there for them. Let them know this as often as you can in as many ways as you can. That’s the most important thing you can do.
Of course, there’s nothing to stop me from being completely neurotic after the kids have gone to bed about every situation that crops up. I do that very well and with great frequency. Just ask my husband; he’ll tell you. Poor guy.
Jane,
I am so impressed by your depth of perspective. I think I am still in “I need to fix it all for them” mode. I know it took my own mother 27 years before she stopped feeling responsible for my entire life and realized that she couldn’t fix all the problems I created for myself. So kudos to you!
Clio will find her own way. The boy in the back of the classroom making medieval weapon sounds will probably turn out to be an incredibly handsome and cool dude.
It never ceases to surprise me the maturity that can come from a three year old!
Just curious — are you ever able to just observe them in the classroom with the other kids? I.e., peek through the window?
My son is just over 2, so I haven’t faced this issue yet, but I don’t know if I’d be able to help myself from at least asking the teacher in a round-about way, “So, how is he interacting with the other kids?”
While I get not wanted to talk to the teacher, especially after Clios comments, I would try and sit down with Clio sometime and talk about how she is doing in school. Having even a casual conversation, in the bathroom without Elsa present might give you a better idea of the sitiation. You don’t want to make a mole hole into a mountian, but you do want to make sure that the kids aren’y bulling, that Clio is the type that would rather be by herself (I was that kid) or bring up other groups she can be a part of without having high intense interaction. Finding some to color or read books may be good things for her to do. Making sure Clio doen’t feel ‘bad’ about not being as outgoing as others, including her sister, and being ok with who she is- is whats important. I KNOW you two are going a good job of this based on other posts.
I would ask Clio if there is someone she might like to play with from school, and see if you can invite that child to your house. Out of the group setting, Clio and this other child might get along well. Plus you can observe and see what the dynamic is.
If there is no one she wants to invite over right now, just keep it as an option for the future. Playing with someone more one-on-one outside of school may make her feel more comfortable than trying to join a big group of kids at preschool. Of course, Elsa can have her turn with a playdate too, but it’s probably going to be more important for you to encourage that with Clio.
To be honest, Clio just might not have a problem with the other kids not playing with her. Some kids (particularly more introverted/sensitive kids) just don’t care. Or they’d rather play alone anyway. I think if you’ve asked Clio about it and she’s telling you it doesn’t bother her, I would leave it alone. In front of Clio, anyway. I firmly believe all mamas should pester their partners with concerns about the kids. “Do you really think she’s okay? I mean, she doesn’t seem upset, does she? Right? Am I making too big a deal of this?”
All joking aside, I don’t think Clio’s old enough to be a really good actress that hides a bunch of things from you. Once it truly bothers her, I bet she’ll find a way to let you know.
I have had those same conversations with my 3 yr old girl. But, she told me the kids “aren’t nice to me, Mommy.” That breaks your heart. Thanks for perspective.
Interesting. As another commenter said– you don’t have to *tell* the teacher; you can *ask* the teacher. Casually. About both kids. And, if possible, observe (teachers can be thick-headed sometimes, and/or unwilling to present a situation in other than the most positive light).
I was one of the kids who other kids didn’t play with at various times during my childhood. Clio’s experience is, of course, unique, so she may feel very differently than I did… however, do consider that “don’t tell the teacher” may mean “because I’m concerned that her tone-deaf, grown-up attempts to fix things will make it worse”. This isn’t necessarily the same as “I don’t need any help”.
Teachers sometimes respond to this sort of thing by, essentially, ordering the other kids to play with the complainant, which is *not* helpful. However, there may be more creative solutions: including finding a school with an explicit “you can’t say you can’t play” policy, or a school that structures free-play more, or even just a couple of super-awesome show-and-tell items…
Possibly my parents being a bit more pro-active could have saved me some heartache. As it was, my parents did not attempt to intervene, and I turned out fine anyway
I think a parent teacher conference might be a good idea to just ask how they do socially in class. Just to see if what the girls say is true. It might not be. 3 year olds are known to exaggerate or bend the truth. Not saying they are, but it never hurts to just find out.
A is right that often teachers hands are tied when it comes to social problems of kids. They can’t make kids like each other or get along or play together. It is hard to force that kind of thing. When they are very young they get over things easily and it is not a huge deal. Things change from day to day and teachers are more clever in finding ways to trick the kids into playing together.
This does not work forever. Cliques form. Kids get mean. Kids start to recognize labels on clothing and designer versus Walmart clothes. Then it gets just plain horrible. I dread all of it. I was picked on horribly in middle school. I was very popular in elementary school and preschool, but was bottom of the run in middle school. One of the worst times of my life. Got better in high school but still not popular and still sometimes made fun of. Same with college. Now as an adult I kinda rule again. I have lots of friends and I am like the social coordinator for my group of friends.
All you can do is be there for them and try to set them up with good social skills and sometimes unfortunately you have to buy them the “Right” stuff so they don’t get singled out.
I also sneak over and watch the kids play on the playground every day before I pick them up. Eric seems to be very social. Harrison hangs out in the corner with only one other kid usually or by himself. Leave it to Harrison to find the one kid sitting in the corner and for him to go sit by that kid and try to be his friend!
Kids are sometimes mean to Harrison because he doesn’t talk and is different. Harrison is too innocent to understand and get what they are doing. It breaks my heart.
I might end up on the news one day because if someone hurts him, well I might have to hurt them back. I would be one of those crazy mothers that punches some kid for being very mean to my kid. I just don’t tolerate that kind of crap.
This was really interesting to read, thanks for sharing. I had a similar experience with my son last year and have been trying to figure it out. He came home from preschool one day sad that the other kids wouldn’t let him play in a complicated pretend scenario. He was really upset about it so he decided he wanted to let him teacher know. He told her himself while I was there and she said she hadn’t observed this happening. Later on a play date I saw him being fairly directive with another child in a pretend scenario. This kid rightfully and politely told him no he wasn’t going to do whatever it was my son suggested. The rest of the playdate was fine. After it was over my son was asking why this boy hadn’t let him play. I had a kind of lightbulb moment when I realized this is likely what happened the day he was so upset. So I guess my point is that when kids discuss social situations sometimes it tricks us a little (especially if they are very verbal) cuz we assume they mean one thing but really their perception of what is going on, their evolving social skills, and their relatively new grasp of language makes it confusing. I agree with other posters about checking in with the teacher about how things are going socially. You don’t need to mention that the girls said anything at all. Good luck!
Wow…all I see are a lot of helicopter parents…I think Jane knows her kid better then all of us here combined. “ignore your child, and go to the teacher.” “have a parent teacher conference” “spy on your kid while she is in class”. SHE IS 3! and its PRE-SCHOOL. Letting your child fight their own battles is much more healthy then doing everything for them. Otherwise, how are they able to become adults and do things for themselves if you are constantly there to pick up the pieces? Until the teacher is calling you up on the phone, or you see a drastic change in your child’s overall happiness I really don’t think you have a whole lot to worry about.
Jane you are doing a great job, and remember, Clio is not alone, she has her twin with her. She is raised in what sounds like an incredibly loving and amazing home she will be just fine.
Oh, and April, being part of the “in crowd” is not always the best place to be. In my experiences those are the most hateful, judgmental, back-stabbing, partying with drugs and alcohol (in high school) type of people. I would rather my kid be in “the bottom of the rung” but with true friends that are always by her side then that crowd.
Hi Jane, interesting and thoughtful post. There’s a lot to discuss. And I totally respect the child autonomy thread of discussion here. I still think you should talk with the teachers. It’s their job to encourage children to socialize in ways appropriate for each child’s need and suitable to the specific dynamic of this classroom. Our H had social isolation trouble (there was actually a clique, age 3!) in her three year old class (it’s a tough year for that I think — they are social but not). She spent most of the year playing by herself or with another boy who was very limited in his socializing for other reasons. The teacher was pretty responsive to us. And the school placed H the following year (for pre-K) in a small and brilliantly socially cooperative class (great teacher for her needs) in part because I’d asked for it. Didn’t hurt to talk the teacher. I have trouble with all of the anti-helicopter talk. Helicopter away! They’re three and in a really important time for their social growth and your finding out about their specific learning needs. warmly, MK from Philly
It’s the fact that she is 3, and in Preschool that makes it right to check on these issues! It’s not helicoptering (which has gotten quite a bad rap, it has somehow branched into any type of involvement of parents in school), and it is certainly within the scope of parental responsibility.
These, more than any other, are formative years, and parent involvement only increases the likelihood of future success, from a social, emotional, and intellectual perspective. There are too many parents who aren’t taking an active stance, who aren’t assisting with pro-social behaviors that create bullies, aggression, and tantrums.
No one here as ever asserted that Jane isn’t a fantastic parent, her posts are consistently thoughtful, and assure readers that she is navigating motherhood as best as anyone could. I’m not sure how various opinions on this topic leads anyone to believe that we are not supportive.
I like a lot of ideas that readers have suggested. When G gets home from school we play “school” and she sets up everything. That’s when I get most of the information about the day. She’ll narrate, “No, Ryan and Michael can’t play together because they are saying mean words all the time.” or “Sandy pushed Megan and they both went to the peace rose and then Sandy said sorry.” I’ve also been using Legos to build a classroom and talk about it from that angle too.
I agree with most people that you should be in communication with the teachers, and observe whenever possible. Observe other children as well as your own, just to see the level of development in the classroom, and where others are. Is there obvious aggression, or a sense of cohesion?
Social development of a 3 year old is important, perhaps more important than the ABCs, but it isn’t stressed nearly enough. It’s great that Elsa is more extraverted, and therefore more friendly and engaging. It’s also going to suck for Elsa if she has to watch Clio struggle, or somehow feels responsible for Clio’s popularity/friendliness. Their matter-of-fact descriptions of the social hierarchy right now will have much more emotion in a couple of years.
I think the best thing you can do is to talk with the teachers, get their sense of the classroom. Maybe it would also be good to do a little class 1:1 with Clio, a mommy and me class of some sort. I guess you could do it with both girls, but it’s supposed to be for Clio, maybe she needs more prompting or scripting of her “making friends” routine.
That being said, I like the perspectives here also to be chill about it all, she’s not reporting distress, hasn’t seemed stressed when coming home from school, hasn’t had an increase in any control issues? Continues to want to go to school. All signs that she is comfortable with the level of engagement her peers are providing. It’s still developmentally appropriate to be engaging in parallel play, and they are just beginning to develop a theory of mind, that she just might not need a lot of peer interaction to feel comfortable. Just as all babies walk and talk at different times, social skills evolve along a spectrum.
I wish I had some assvice to offer but this has been very interesting to see different perspective and some good options for handling things. I heart Clio (and Elsa) from afar and that even made me mad to hear what her classmates are doing…I can’t imagine how you feel.
In the early years, it’s entirely appropriate to ask the teacher whether Elsa & Clio’s interpretation of events is accurate and, if so, what can be done to integrate them more fully in the class. In fact, I think it’s your responsibility. After all, part of the agenda of preschool is to give children an opportunity to develop their social skills, learn to have fun with different personality types, manage small conflicts, etc and they can hardly do that if they are only playing with each other. (Really, they could do that at home!)
Speaking to the teacher(s) will help you get a better handle on the situation, which will enable you to equip yourself with the appropriate tools in your parenting tool box to deal with whatever issue Clio may (or may not) be having. It’s hardly the same has helicopter parenting, e.g. swooping in and ordering the other children to play with your daughters – OR ELSE!
When you have gathered accurate information you will be in a better position to help/guide/advocate for your children, which are your jobs as their parent. If what the girls are reporting is accurate, it’s entirely possible that Clio really doesn’t care that she’s being ‘excluded,’ but it’s also possible that she’s internalizing what’s happening, which could be problematic in the future. Better to get involved now, before these internal messages ‘take root’.
In my experience, preschool teachers are well-trained, experienced and pretty sophisticated. They would never tell children that they ‘had to’ play with other children. I have witnessed that, when young children need assistance with integrating into social groups, they are advised to say, ‘What can I do?’ instead of ‘Can I play?’. (It’s genius, in that no one can say ‘no’ in case that’s not clear.) I would recommend you share this information with Clio.
These formative years provide us with an opportunity to give our children the gift of good social skills – the gift that keeps on giving – while they are still content to listen to our advice. Please don’t waste your chance to help give them a solid foundation in making and keeping friends.
Funny, the take-away I got from your post was that your kids were fine with the social situation at school, even though Clio in particular isn’t exactly a social butterfly, and that you were a bit in awe of their increasing sophistication, social and otherwise. It’s fascinating to read all the posts and see the various responses! A good reminder that as parents, we so often project our own experiences onto our children.
That said, I’m dying for my chance to be the parent helper at my 3 yo’s pre-school, because she hasn’t told me anything about anything (making me realize, of course, that our kids are starting to have lives of their own – so scary and exciting at once!), and I’m intensely curious!!
So very interesting to read all your comments, and I appreciate all the different perspectives!
It’s funny, my intent in writing this post was mostly to reflect on the fact that I was struck by / suddenly aware of the fact that these social issues will start to happen, and that I may or may not be able to help. I wasn’t quite as concerned with how to handle this actual situation — though obviously it worries me a little. (And I’m certainly open to suggestions.)
This will only be the third week back at school, so I’m sure the class and everyone in it is still finding their rhythm. But I probably will ask the teacher how the girls are doing, and if they’re getting along with their classmates, etc. There will also be a teacher conference at some point, so we can check in then as well.
Jane, your post actually prompted me to ask my boys about their friends at preschool, and they told me they don’t have any. I had this horrible anxious moment, and then I thought- it can’t possibly be true. They can’t always be on their own. I do think their version of reality is a little different- the other day G told me there was no teacher in the classroom so he couldn’t go to the bathroom, and you know that’s not true. So my take would be to just keep an eye on the situation, and bring it up with the teacher generally. Clio’s take might not be the same as the teacher’s.
Great post, and interesting conversation. I read this while working, so I couldn’t comment right away, but I emailed myself my points so I wouldn’t forget them! Clearly, this is a post that’s hit on a lot of parents’ concerns.
As someone who has worked in a preschool classroom, I would like to encourage you to talk to the teacher. A lot of classrooms for preschoolers have a “you can’t say you can’t play” rule. (Great education book from I think the 70s, a lot of info still really useful to educators.) And while letting kids fight their own fights can be fine in elementary school, helping them sort out conflict in preschool is pretty much a preschool teacher’s job. It’s not like sorting out kid conflicts/communication issues disrupts the preschool curriculum, it IS the preschool curriculum. And there is always the possibility that it is a communication issue, not anything malicious…especially if the girls don’t seem particularly bothered. It’s completely worth checking in with the teacher. Frankly, if there was a big “don’t play with Clio & Elsa” thing going on and the teacher hadn’t noticed/mentioned it, that’s kind of a big deal. These are the sorts of things that teachers & parents should be on the same page about.
On the other hand, it is really awesome to see you take your kids’ wishes and opinions so seriously. It is so important that they know that you want to hear their side of things. I really love that about your blog posts.
My first post ever! I am no longer a lurker. I meant to post on your last one, where you gave a shout out to Owen but it just did not happen. Anyway, my only comment is to not forget about “parallel play.” Most kids at this age prefer to play next to each other not with each other- and who knows how their brains translate this info to us. When Owen comes home from school I ask him what he did today and he is either silent (rare) or he says “Nothing,” just like a teenager.
The notion that I won’t be able to protect my kids from bad things absolutely kills me. I might as well go get a prescription now because just the thought of it makes my already persistent anxiety skyrocket. I feel your pain on this one. The temptation to make everything all better for ours kids is so great.