That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Debra — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 03:27:50 GMT

Katie, excellent and thoughtful writing. The comments from everyone have been very interesting and informative.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Denise Rivers — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:40:06 GMT

Malia-EXCELLENT points! I have a lot of friends who are vegetarians and food combining is important...and not well known in our society, especially in this part of the world. Your part in her food education is incredibly important and making her understand how to make her own wise decisions based on something SHE decided to do is an awesome mommy moment. Thanks for sharing that.

And Liz-I don't know that she gravitates to healthy, she does eat crap, like any kid, which Katie can attest to! I do appreciate your point and thank God that the powers that be did not challenge my food issues with a kid who hated veggies (like my step daughter does!!!)

And Katie, thanks for starting this.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Denise Rivers — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:28:13 GMT

Heather-loved your comment.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Liz — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:08:41 GMT

Denise: I totally agree with everything that you said. EXCEPT for the unregulated kid naturally gravitating towards healthy stuff. If I would have had only one child, I would be nodding my head on that one smugly because my first child was exactly like that. Begged me for broccoli at the age of three. I was pleased because I thought is was of my own doing.

Along comes kid number two. I did the same thing. This kid LOVES carbs. We have taken to asking him if he is "really" hungry or if he just is bored/saw a commercial/heard food mentioned in our conversation. We tell him to eat slower so he feels full before he gets seconds and then to ask himself if he is really hungry before those seconds. I no longer have juice in the house because he could easily suck down a whole case of juice boxes in a few days.

But as for the emotional eating: totally agree with it. If kids are emotionally healthy, they are far less likely to use vast quantities of food to medicate themselves.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

kgranju — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:24:39 GMT

@Heather - I absolutely could not agree more.

-Katie

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Heather — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:19:49 GMT

Some of the best literature about eating disorders I have read make the point that eating disorders are not really about food or body image but rather CONTROL (um-- duh? Parents of toddlers have heard this forever!!) When your life is spinning out of control (or at least feels that way) for one reason or another (bad marriage, the stresses of early adulthood / college) some people (mainly women but not always) try to control their weight /what they eat, etc.

Certainly a poor body image or emotional eating probably places anybody at greater risk for an eating disorder but in my limited personal experience as well as watching my close women friends, those who seem almost immune to such issues are those women who have been taught that they are powerful people who can make smart choices about their lives in all areas.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Cricket — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:37:26 GMT

I grew up with the phrase you are what you eat (vegetables and fruit will make you pretty, Snickers will make you ugly). That may sound harsh but I came from a very straight forward family. On top of it I was always told I was beautiful and perfect with lots of love and my family did almost everything together, vacations, family meals etc.

Recently when I read the book Naturally Thin I was shocked that it was everything my mom had taught me such as don;t eat everything on your plate, if you have fried food for lunch -have a salad for dinner, share a dessert and most importantly keep moving (no formal exercise).

Our dinners always consited of a salad, vegetable and protein. If eating out at a Mexican restaurant don;t order the entree with a side of beans and rice just order an ala carte taco.

My mom never dieted and as I recall she was always the same weight. On the other hand, I have seen my father yo-yo a bit and thats because he like to indulge. I think in all thing if we teach moderation everything else will fall into place.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

500Jerk — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:08:58 GMT

Katie,

I am so glad you shared your story; this post (and the comments, Denise's especially) are a kick in the pants for me.

500Jerk

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Dewi — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:14:47 GMT

Denise, beautifully said!

Did we have the same mother?

I made a point not to be the way my mom was with me.

I'm very mindful about the whole issue with my daughter and just let her be I had nothing to say about what she eats.

What I have chosen is about me, how I behave, I never fall into the trap of saying degoratory things about myself, my weight or appearance, or if the food I'm eating is fattening.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Malia — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:14:27 GMT

Six months ago, my daughter decided to become a vegetarian. She was in third grade and 8 1/2 years old. And suddenly, I became quite, not obsessed but very conscious, of what she was eating. Her father and I want to support her in her decision but at her age, she still needs a lot of guidance in making the right choices for her chosen lifestyle. She understands that not eating meat means she must get protein from other sources and I try to be quite vigilant, making sure that she's not just eating cheese and peanut butter.

There was a side effect, if you will, of her change in eating habits. At 8 1/2 years old (she just turned nine last month) she started losing some weight. Not a lot, not a drastic drop, probably about 10 lbs over 4-5 months time. (She seems to have stopped losing or at least plateaued.) And I was getting comments from people. "Wow! Your daughter looks like she's lost weight!?!" (Now, yes, she's not exactly skinny but she's not overweight or obese. She's off the charts height/weight because at nine years old, she's as tall as your average 11 or 12 yr old.) But I was so taken aback by that. She's just a kid. She's still growing. I'm sure the weight loss wasn't harmful to her, I'm sure it helped in maintaining a healthy weight. But it was more of the way it was said, like she looked better because of it. That bothered me. Because really? You think an active, healthy, non-overweight, 8 1/2 year old looks better because she lost 10 lbs? Ugh. I have tried to be nonchalant about it. She knows she lost weight. She could tell because of the way her clothes were fitting. At her age, losing weight is not a goal. Should not be a goal. Just being a kid, being active and having fun is the goal.

So, all that to say. When I ask my daughter if she's had any fruit or veggies or if she has drunk enough water that day or how much cheese she's consumed, it's not because I'm obsessed with her weight or how she looks. It's because one day, she'll be in the position of having to make choices all by herself (like being at camp this past week). I feel it's my responsibility, as her parent, to equip her with the information she needs to be healthy. Even if she wasn't a vegetarian, that would still be my responsibility. So I think dialoguing with our children about their food choices is healthy. Asking about exercise is not about weight loss but being healthy.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Julie — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:09:12 GMT

It's not just a girl issue. Boys are getting fatter all the time, and the health complications for them are just as dangerous and long-lasting. And fwiw I see nothing wrong with telling kids what they can and cannot eat. Just because one person's kid "naturally" goes for the cukes and tomatoes doesn't mean everybody else's will if they just don't talk about it. I have to regulate my kid's consumption of certain things; he doesn't have a built-in regulator or a high degree of impulse control. But he is naturally very active and loves sports and movement. Anyway, what works for one person doesn't work for everybody. Some kids need guidance and encouragement; well I thought parenting was all about that but maybe I don't get it yet.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Liz — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:32:12 GMT

thank you for your honesty here Katie. I too was bulimic. Although for very different reasons. My father died when I was very young; he was morbidly obese. Most of his side of the family is/was obese (not chubby: obese) so I had the genetic thing going on. I stuffed most of my feelings from the time of my fathers death on by eating. And eating some more. Oh, and did I mention that I was on medication for ADD right up until my dad died??? Yeah, that takes away your appetite and there is nothing like having an appetite suppressant discontinued at the exact moment that you want to drown your pain in lots and lots of food.

I also had a lot of male acceptance issues, and in the absence of any real messages about relationships, I sucked up the idea from the media that being skinny equaled love. I lost weight in high school through obsessively controlling my diet. I was not yet bulimic, although I think the obsession I had with food probably DID qualify as some sort of an eating disorder. It was my drug of choice, but if I "used", then I would never be loved. Oh, what to do?? I was in college when I figured that one out. And on and on through my twenties and employment in the restaurant (!) biz. I finally stopped when I figured one day I would get busted and it would be totally humiliating. I just moved my compulsions elsewhere.

Interestingly, this has not been an issue with my DAUGHTER who seemed to gravitate to healthy choices, but my son recently got a nice talk from the doctor about weight. I was mortified that the doctor would say anything and he was like, no, he needs to hear this. Because he could be at risk for diabetes and heart disease and all sorts of stuff. Therein the problem in how to guide a kid who loves junk to healthier choices without giving him a complex.

All I can tell you is I have always, always tried to frame it in terms of health with both my kids and never in terms of appearance or societal acceptance. I also am hoping my son will not take up wrestling (which is very big in our community; so far he is uninterested) because some kids who otherwise might not develop eating disorders do when involved with sports where coaches encourage weight loss. (of which wrestling is the main one with boys)

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Bonny M — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 04:21:11 GMT

Katie,

I don't have children so I can't advise so much in that area, except to say that I think a lot of good can be done by building up children's general self-esteem. When children are taught their worth and value as people, then some of this other stuff becomes a nonissue. What I wish my parents had taught me was the real value of eating healthy. My mother still feels that you eat to give yourself comfort. I was always thin as a young girl and woman...only gaining weight as the 30s approached and took a medication that added to the problem. In my late 40s, this extra weight (not excessive by most standards) began to cause me health problems, which I didn't realize. I have been learning to eat healthy while having some unhealthy "fun" choices from time to time. I don't diet, but I'm losing weight because I've changed my eating habits and added exercise. My health issues are going away, and I want to slap my head, duh. So maybe this is what I'm trying to share with you to share, not only with your daughters, but your sons as well, it's never too early to develop good eating and exercising habits, but you can still enjoy your fun times..that milkshake or hamburger...just not all the time. If they start these habits now, it won't be nearly so hard later in life, when it is really important.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Leslie — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:49:10 GMT

My mother put me on a diet when I was four. For the rest of the time I lived at home, I was always on a diet. I was always feeling deprived. I was always feeling judged for what I ate.

Even though I don't like being fat, I feel like when I eat what I want at least no one else is controlling me. Of course, that's not really true, since my NOT dieting is a form of rebellion, so I'm still being controlled somehow by those past messages.

I've had overweight children and I have never put them on diets. When they ASK me about losing weight or exercising I have answered their questions. I've made it very clear that they can lose weight if they want to, WHEN they want to. Their bodies, their decisions.

I don't think there was anything wrong with your questions to Jane because of the context. You weren't suggesting exercise as a weight loss tool, but as a way of making her feel livelier. It's the same as when I tell my little kids that they can't have a treat until they eat something healthy--not because I am worried about their weight, but because I don't want them filling up on empty calories. As long as your concern is health and not appearance that's the main thing.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Denise Rivers — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 02:14:58 GMT

awwww shucks! And I make a kick ass muffin!

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Katie — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:41:11 GMT

Denise - I think you rock. And you are a beautiful, amazing person, inside and out. I feel lucky to be your friend, and K is lucky to be your daughter.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Denise Rivers — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:54:16 GMT

I feel pretty strongly that kids entering high school do not need to be preached at or even reminded that eating right and partaking in some physical activity that they love will make them feel good. They also know that "healthy" requires a lot more than eating right and exercise...good genes, avoiding high risk behavior, wearing their seatbelts, not drinking and driving, not succumbing to peer pressure, a strong sense of support and love from people who are happy with them just as they are...all these things are vitally important.

I have had an eating disorder since age 10...probably longer than that. But since it doesn't have an ICD-9 code like bulemia or anorexia I am often viewed as lazy or without willpower. Bite me. I have enough will power to survive an abusive childhood and being a woman in the medical profession.

It is not about will power. It is not about the food, it is not about the exercise. Anyone who is using food to feel better (or addicted to drugs, or alcoholic, or a sex addict or and other numbing behavior we use today) is not there because they weren't educated. Aren't doing this because their parents didn't talk about the importance of ________ in their childhood. They are there because they are looking to numb themselves. Numb yourself from pain, bitterness, boredom, dissatisfaction, you name it.

My daughter is 6. A teeny tiny, muscular six. I REFUSE to tell her what to eat. I refuse to deny her ANY food. Yet she routinely asks for "healthy" snacks. She chooses cucumbers and tomatoes over cheetos EVERY time. She loves to run and skip and ride and play. She is everything I never was when it comes to food. Well adjusted and unencumbered. And I have NEVER said a word.

NEVER.

Feeding ourselves and moving our bodies are basic cell level needs. It is the bullsh*t we put on top of all that that leads to dysfunction. Eat when you are hungry. Eat ONLY what you want and not what you think you should eat. Stop when you are physically satisfied. And NEVER let anyone tell you that you are doing it wrong.

This is a HUGE thing for me. My daughter is going to find things about herself that are not "up to par" but I will be damned if I let anybody but her determine what her high bar is.

She used the word fat to describe my belly once. And looked at me in abject horror as if she wished she could suck it right back out of the universe she let it escape into. I told her it was fine. My belly was fat. It was where she lived for nine months. I have also told her that a lot of the time mommy eats to feel better. And that it never, ever works. Ever. Mommy learned that a fat belly was "bad" when she was little. I tell her that my mommy could never see the little girl in front of her without commenting on her weight (which was actually quite normal until she started putting me on diets and amphetamines.) She could never let me be an amazing child. I always was a disappointment because I had fat thighs. She actually told me this once when I was working two jobs the summer before my second year of medical school. I was a disappointment because I was too fat. And I believed her. I was 23.

I tell my daughter that now her mommy knows that that belly says nothing at all about the amazing person mommy is. Mommy is making peace with her fat. When we become friends, when I learn to stop hating my physical self, I truly believe I won't need too much of me to establish an important presence in the world. I will know that I am enough.

As a physician, I believe i am very well versed on what a healthy diet and exercise does for the body. Didn't really change a lot for me, did it? I didn't start changing until I stopped holding myself up to everyone elses expectations. I can honestly say i do not hate my body and there are parts of it that are bangin' and parts of it that are war weary for carrying me through the emotional battles that I believed i needed pounds and pounds of armor for. I finally feel like i am entering a phase in my life where just being is enough. i am no longer waiting to lose that pregnancy weight to feel good about myself. I am 100% clear that when i get off my own back i will let myself enjoy movement, not because I force myself to work out 3 times a week because i want to fit into size whatever, but because I like the way i feel after I do that activity, or during that activity.

And ya know who has a front row seat to this whole wonderful show...my daughter.

I also make it pretty clear, she can talk to me about anything...anything at all. And if she wants to talk about feeling fat or wanting to go on a diet, I will not judge her for that. But she will hear my story and I will make it clear to her that this is HER body, not mine, so my sh*t has no place in her decision making but hopefully she will learn from the painful path I took, paved with diet after diet, to get to 234 lbs.

I will not ask her if she got her exercise in, or if she ate "x" amount of calories. But I will likely ask her if she did something today that reminded her of how happy she can be, or reminded her of how remarkable life is...even if she isn't a size 4.

This was an extremely difficult thing for me to write especially in a place where the audience is not one of my "safe" zones. I suspect people will jump me for this, but i also hope that one person will read it and feel like i know their plight. And they will not yell at their child for sneaking a candy bar. Or better yet, ask their child what they want that candy bar to do for them. I think we might be surprised by the answers.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Clisby — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:39:47 GMT

I don't get why talking about healthy food or exercise has anything to do with weight or body image. The purpose of eating healthy food and getting a reasonable amount of exercise isn't to be thin - it's to be healthy.

However, when you say, "How can I talk about the importance of maintaining a healthy weight without sending the wrong message?" - be sure you're talking about a healthy weight, not a fashionable weight.

Here's an example from WebMD:

www.webmd.com/.../weight-and-health-risks

I'm probably a little underweight - at 5 feet, 6 inches, I weigh 125 pounds. Using this tool, I had to go up to 155 pounds to hit even the "moderate" health risks level. At 175 pounds, I was still only at the "moderate" health risk level.

I'm quite sure there are people who would have thought I was overweight well before I hit 155 - but if this tool has any validity, I'd still have had a healthy weight.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Sasha — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:44:26 GMT

Wow. Are we really that far gone that exercise is equated always with weight loss efforts? How about health? Sanity? General quality of life? I work out, maybe to an abnormal degree because I love it. I hope my daughter does the same. I am almost sad that this discussion even needs to happen. I would ask both my kids if they have had their workouts without worrying at all about them getting the wrong message. A sedentary lifestyle leads to a lot more than just obesity.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

JJ — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:31:43 GMT

I grew up in a household where food, weight and exercise weren't discussed and I think I suffered as a result. My mother was overweight and I was an overweight teenager. My father had passed away when I was 10 years old and I'm sure in her sadness my mother became and emotional eater, and so did I.

I was desperately unhappy with my weight and had no idea how to do anything about it. I had no guidance and no help in finding healthy alternatives. I remember even asking my pediatrician about it on one visit and she simply glossed over it, I'm sure in an attempt to prevent eating disorders.

I think if some had felt comfortable speaking frankly with me about weight, exercise and healthy eating, I would have taken the information and run with it. Instead, my mother was bogged down in grief and had unhealthy habits herself. My healthier, more active aunts felt too uncomfortable to discuss it and afraid of hurting my feelings. Gym teachers (gym class, no there is an underutilized opportunity) never showed me how to exercise for a lifetime, instead we played whiffle ball for 6 months. Even doctors didn't take the opportunity to guide an obese teen.

I got to college and luckily had a roommate who was active and into nutrition. Through my friendship with her I learned great habits, dropped 40+ pounds and never looked back. I felt better about myself and had far more energy.

So that my long winded way of saying, talk about food, weight and exercise. Don't make it a taboo subject and make eating seem dirty or exercise seem like a chore. And practice what you preach...something it sounds like you are already doing.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

A bulemics sister — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:41:46 GMT

I feel strongly that your question was not inappropriate. One mistake we, as a society, are making nowadays is to conflate exercise and body size. Sometimes we do physical activity to lose weight or tone our bodies. Sometimes we do it for fun, with no thought to our shape. Health, maybe, but not shape or size. When I was young, I was encouraged to play physically for my health, but it wasn't about my size as I understood it.

Last night, watching So You Think You Can Dance, one contestant sheepishly admitted that he had 'never exercised a day in his life', much to his partners astonishment (he has a very FIT body, of course). It really struck me. He certainly HAS exercised; he is a dancer with years of training under his belt. That is exercise. But because he never did it with the intention or building muscle, or losing body fat, he didn't think he had.

We seem to have demonized exercise into something that we HAVE to do, even though we don't want to. This isn't always so.

All that to say that if your daughter said she felt sluggish and you asked if she had been physically active, it was a perfectly appropriate question. Activity does increase your energy levels, whether one is 300 lbs or 100.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:27:32 GMT

I don't know how I escaped relatively unscathed by eating disorders-- in middle school both of my best friends were depressed and anorexic, and I've watched other friends do daily battle with their weight. I'm happy with my body, and society seems happy with my body (maybe that's why...). My mother is quite overweight, and she battled with her weight all through adolescence and early adulthood. She never let me disparage my body, even in jest, and she didn't diet. I grew up active and healthy, eating cookies whenever I wanted. I don't eat cookies whenever I want now, but it's not as much because of my weight as because I know how to make healthier choices, and it doesn't cost me much mental anguish to do so. I don't know what the key to peace with your body might be, but I do know that I was given the message that your body is not cause for shame, ever, no matter what you look like.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Meredith — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:39:17 GMT

Agree totally with Marie-Eve. Teaching by example is going to go a lot farther to encourage healthy habits than "have you gotten any exercise today?"

My mother NEVER made comments directly to me about my weight--I was always underweight--but I regularly heard her make comments about "that big, fat woman over there."

Similar to you, I developed issues in high school/college that required multiple interventions, shall we say. But later on (probably when I started dancing professionally, which required certain caloric intake), the switch flipped for me as well. I haven't looked back.

You write regularly about how smart and talented J is; you don't ever focus on her (or anyone else's) appearance and I think that's the healthy way to view the world.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

Marie-Eve — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:28:56 GMT

OK I don't have a daughter, but if I did I would be preoccupied by that as well. I also do somewhat credit my mom for a bad self-image and warped relationship with food and my weight (I feel mostly cured from it now).

That being said, with the context you provided, I think you did exactly the right thing! You promoted an active (=healthy) lifestyle, not emphasized something negative or toyed with her own issues... I don't think political correctness should be taken that far...

I strongly believe in teaching by example, and I think that it's far more damaging for daughters to see mothers obsessing about their weight (whether it's "justified" or not) and judging people, women especially, based on their size.

re: That thing about which mothers of daughters must not speak

asinner — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:14:53 GMT

I grew up in a healthy household, and all I can tell you is what worked in our case. My parents ate healthy. Treats were for sporadic rewards/events and on the weekends. Portions weren't so much about weight control, but being polite. So ice cream bars - you'd never think of eating more than one a day. Soda - never drank more than one a day on weekends only, and never more than half before dinner so I didn't ruin my appetite (like when ordering pizza at a restaurant). Fridays were the ice cream shop after dinner, but two scoops was the normal serving and sundaes were for special occasions.

It was just normal. Weight had nothing to do with it, and I never thought about it. My parents served basically lean protein and veggies (with milk) for dinner nearly every "normal" night, and I didn't notice at all that my mom was on WeightWatchers that whole time and would only have half a glass of skim to my big glass. Little did I know, also, that they were only doing it to set an example for me. As soon as I grew up and moved out, their resolve crumbled quite a bit! Now I eat healthier than they do.

As for exercise, as a teen I started walking 5 miles a day with my mom and going to the gym with her over the summer. For her it might have been about weight, but for me it was just about exercising... We had a scale in the house, but it was in their master bath - I never got on it and never thought to.

My mom also NEVER criticized her own body, my body or the body of anyone else in the world. I remember her once saying that if you didn't exercise, you could end up like a woman she knew who was skinny but had a really squishy body. She said she didn't want that for herself. I remember the discussion (obviously), but it didn't have any negative impact on me at all. I think her lack of self-criticism was probably one of the biggest things. I hope I can do the same when I have children. That, and eat a healthy diet and work out consistently to set a good example for them.