Strollerderby

I have never understood the child free thing...I mean yes, I get not liking kids....but if we didn't 'breed' then THEY would not be on the planet to bitch about other 'breeder's.  It seems a bit bizarre.

But after hearing a vitriolic 'Breeders' hissed at me by a woman at the beach last summer...you gotta wonder about some people!

All emotion aside, our kids will be the taxpayers of tomorrow. They will be working 60 hours a week  to keep these non-breeders in Medicare daipers. This country needs babies to pay off the national debt.Immigrants can't do it all.

The short answer is, Yes, people really are so selfish and narrow minded as to believe that their way is the only way.  I could give you a list of examples, but it would take up to much room.

I put the childfree movement, in the same boat as creationists (evolutionfree movement?).  You just can't deny biology.  On an individual level reproduction is a choice, on a societal level, it is not.

I don't have a problem with people choosing not to have children for whatever reason.

I do have a problem with them having a problem with other people's children. Sure, there are certain times/places when there's a no-child zone, but singles have made the complaints against couples-only places as well, but some of these couples would have a problem with that, too.

As someone pointed out, the children born now will be supporting these people so it's not strictly a matter of "I don't have kids so I shouldn't have to pay for benefits that support them". There are benefits that support various groups of people that everyone pays for. And these children will become a part of our society so everything they can do to support the growth, health, and well-being of a productive member of society benefits us all.

What kills me the most about these people is the fact that they feel they need to form groups so they can meet other single people without kids. Before I got married and started down the baby train I never had a problem. I didn't even know anyone with kids! They are such whiners. I mean it's not like we are out there forming anti-non-breeders groups.

I didn't know such a thing existed. What a bunch of freaks!!!

Sure, it's totally cool not having kids if you don't want too- but trying to push there agenda into the rest of society is plain stupid.

Perhaps they need to move to Italy or Japan were there is a such a low birthrate that in 100 years they'll be extinct.

Most of us CFers are fine and don't need to get defensive until people pull the condenscending act. No one seems to want to accept a simple "I don't care for kids." This simple and straightforward answer is usually met with lines such as:

1. You'll change your mind (no, sorry)

2. You're selfish (nope, not that either)

3. Who will take care of you when you are old (having children does not insure one's care in the future)

4. Everyone wants to have kids! (generalization which is not true)

Why is "I do not care to have children," so hard to accept? Why is it your business? Do I question parents about why they have kids? I figure it is what they chose to do with their lives and leave it at that.

The main problem I notice is that entitlement minded parents who are too lazy and selfish to raise their kids properly ruin things for both CFers and good parents who do care about their kids and are intelligent enough to know that having children is not  for everyone.

Spare us all the "my kid will pay your XYZ benefits in the future", already!

I'm paying into the system *now*. I expect a return on my investment or I want *my* money back - that simple. Since I've already paid in better than 25 years' worth and have been saving for my retirement, I assume that *society* will pay me back. After all, I'm paying for both your and my parents today.

Add to that the fact that I pay loads of taxes for things I don't use - schools, baseball and soccer fields my dog isn't allowed on, community centers, public pools, tax breaks for parents - you name it. I figure that after I get done counting up all the "investing" in the community I will have done over a lifetime, your kids owe me.

That brings me to my final point. There is no guarantee that my current investment in your kids will actually yield a return at all. Your kid might end up in prison or otherwise dependent on the government for support. Who's to say that just because they're your DNA replicant they'll end up shouldering any of the societal burden? They can't all cure cancer or be the next president..

I know how parents are - you want "the village" to pitch in - right up to the point that the village gets to weigh in on the job you're doing as a parent. Then, it suddenly becomes a "parent's rights" issue. The CF have a right to be heard - we're being asked to shoulder a great deal of the burden.

I know how parents are - you want "the village" to pitch in - right up to the point that the village gets to weigh in on the job you're doing as a parent.

-----------------------------------------------------

Yup. We need to give money, pay more taxes (I feel the more members of the household the more you pay!) sacrafice and do all that good stuff for kids. However if you ask a parent to have their loud child quiet down in a crowded theater you're imposing on a "parent's" right to have their kid out.

Is that what you really think "notamealticket?" If so, you are just proving to me that your brand of childfree person doesn't get it. Have you never been around parents that are actually "on it?" My kid would never be allowed to be disruptive in a theater or restaurant, etc.  I can't help you if you choose to see a matinee showing of "Cars" or you choose to dine at a kid-friendly restaurant at 5PM, but any other time, if my child is being inappropriately disruptive, it gets *handled.* And I know many parents who are the same.

I honestly don't care whether people have children. No one should have to have kids if they don't want them. But just as I wouldn't paint all people who choose not to have kids with the "they must be selfish" brush, I would hope that all parents wouldn't be lumped together as "indulgent."

Stefania -

Oh of course YOUR children would never misbehave and if they did, YOU would handle it.

How many times have there been mothers and fathers who talk the talk but dont walk the walk.

It comes down to the 'not my child syndrome'.

How many people have been driven to distraction by some dumb bint bringing the 2 year old, 12 month old child to the 9pm showing of any adult rated film? God forbid the parent realise that 1) the child probably wants to be a home in bed and 2) The movie isnt even appropriate for children.

"I know how parents are - you want "the village" to pitch in - right up to the point that the village gets to weigh in on the job you're doing as a parent."

Truth.

I just find it interesting that child-free advocates are reading a website geared towards parents and children....ammunition perhaps?  'Look at all those breeders!  They think they're so hip!' ;)

A few points:

I love how many parents practically fall all over themselves with the patronizing, "I really am okay with people who decide not to have children, but......". Well, thanks so much for your approval, it really means the world to me. I lost a lot of sleep last night worrying if you thought it was okay and that I wasn't some kind of monster for not opting into your lifestyle.

I've yet to meet a parent who openly admits that they wouldn't 'handle' their child if they were acting out in public, nor have I met one who admits to dragging babies and talky toddlers to upscale restaurants and 10 pm movies. Those people I see all the time must be figments of my imagination. Of course, I've yet to meet the parent of a bad kid, either. Even the Moms of murderers and rapists will insist they really are good boys who just fell into the wrong crowd. And when your teenager gets in trouble for swearing at a teacher I'm sure the teacher really is an ogre who deserved it for failing to treat Dakota or Maddysyn as an equal in the classroom. Never fear, though, I'm sure you'll handle it. 2 hours without cell phone privileges will really show them who's boss.

I've been working and paying taxes into this system that will faaaar surpass anything I ever take out. I pay taxes for services that your kids use and I get no breaks for it. So when I am old, you bet your kids can do their share in returning the favor. By the way, what is this apparent obsession that many of you have with old people in diapers and your kids wiping their butts? Just because you made a life out of wiping asses doesn't mean everyone else wants to and,if they do, they'll be paid for it if it's their job. There is also no guarantee that your child will grow up to be the kind of adult who is willing to wipe YOUR butt, either.

Most of us CFers are friends with people who have children and actually like many children even though we don't want to make a lifestyle out of raisng them. We understand that kids are people and that babies will let out the occasional screech and that oddlers will have meltdowns. We also observe that the best parents with the best kids are the ones who don't need to be best friends with their kids and don't care too much if their kids like them or not. They also think their kids need to be respectful of others and don't make lame excuses for them when they damage someone's property or commit a crime. We know that even good kids will do bad things sometimes, but good parents (we did have parents, we weren't raised by wolves) don't put their heads in the sand because their identities are so enmeshed with their kids that they see any complaint about their child's behavior as a personal attack on their parenting. We actually contribute to the well being of your children in many ways (many of us are your doctors, teachers, coaches) and want to see them turn out well. But it seems that sometimes the only input that is wanted from the village comes in the form of a monetary donation and it stops there. Funny, nobody ever feels that my not having children is an issue when I AGREE with them, only when I don't.

Finally, there may have been an abundance of non-childed people when you were single, but most of them weren't planning to stay that way. Those of us who are Childfree do intend to stay that way, so we want to  develop a social network of like minded people who we can make plans with and with whom our relationships won't be sidelined when one of us decides to procreate and fall off the face of the earth. We know that having a baby is a huge transformation, but are we wrong to want friends who won't be lost and can be there for us, too? All we really ask is that our lack of children by choice be a non-issue and that we be respected enough not to have people make negative assumptions about us (to our faces, no less!) or assume that just because we don't have kids that we have time to do their jobs and don't mind working all the crappy shifts and holidays. We do have lives, it just isn't YOUR life.

Thank you for allowing me to express myself.

"I just find it interesting that child-free advocates are reading a website geared towards parents and children....ammunition perhaps?  'Look at all those breeders!  They think they're so hip!' ;)"

You mean like the parent-advocates who complain about content on the private child-free boards and sites that noone FORCED them to read? ;)

I guess I'm just not a parent 'advocate'.  I had no idea such things as 'child free' boards existed until a few weeks ago!  Personally, I wouldn't go complain on a child free website--you just end up creating more vitriol, even if you have the best intentions.  And I think what Patti was originally trying to get across with this article was that familiar sentiment of 'can't we all just get along?'.  You don't have children.  I do.  I try to do the best I can in this whole 'parenting' thing.  I try to 'control' my child in public spaces (and I certainly don't drag my daughter to 10pm movies--I can barely stay up that late!).  It doesn't always work out perfectly.  Let's move on.

"My kid would never..."

How many times have we all heard THAT line?

My kid would NEVER hurt an animal....

My kid would NEVER talk back to a teacher...

My kid would NEVER act up in an upscale restaurant...

My kid would NEVER shoplift...

My kid would NEVER use drugs...

My kid would NEVER engage in pre-marital sex...

My kid would NEVER disrespect me in front of other adults...

My only issue with 'family friendly' work policies is that they aren't so friendly to CF families.  

If policies are made they should be fair to all employees regardless of any status outside of work.

One more comment.

Most Cf people would never dream of telling another person to not have children.

It's a completely personal choice.

My husband isn't fully decided on if he wants children or not.  It is his choice if he stays with me and thus CF or decides kids are important enough for a divorce.  I would let him go in a heartbeat and with my blessings to fulfill what is important to him in his life.

All my siblings have children and many of my friends.  I wouldn't get very far if all I ever did was carp on them about their choice.

The CF 'movement' isn't advocating people not have kids if the want them, just that we should be treated fairly by people and not walked over because we don't have kids.

"I can't help you if you choose to see a matinee showing of "Cars" or you choose to dine at a kid-friendly restaurant at 5PM, but any other time, if my child is being inappropriately disruptive, it gets *handled.* And I know many parents who are the same."

How bout when we waited to see Pirates of the Caribbean, two months after it was out, at the latest show, and what do we see? An infant in a car seat.

Pirates of the Caribbean isn't a kiddie movie. There's violence and VERY loud sounds. Why would someone bring their infant to a 9 pm showing of a loud movie?

Why? I'll tell ya. Cuz she was a single moo breeder who thinks the world revolves around her and her screaming, loudly fussing loaf.

You know, if I was an infant and my parental unit brought me to a loud movie that hurt my ears, I'd scream bloody murder, too. I'd scream loud enough so that CPS heard me and gave me to someone that wanted to be a parent, not someone who just wants a fashion accessory.

Out of sheer curiosity: how does a CFer remain child-free? No contraceptive device works 100%. So what's the best way? Celibacy? Sterilization? Hysterectomy?

And what happens if your method fails?

This question isn't meant to judge. I'm honestly curious.

^^^^^

I notice that abortion was conspicuously absent from your list of possible options. Why was that? Just curious.

"Out of sheer curiosity: how does a CFer remain child-free? No contraceptive device works 100%. So what's the best way? Celibacy? Sterilization? Hysterectomy?

And what happens if your method fails?

This question isn't meant to judge. I'm honestly curious."

-->And what happens if your method fails?

Abortion is still legal, thank God.

I wanted to add that people do not automatically become 'breeders' when they have children. That word is reserved for a specific type of parent, like the ones complained about in other posts. It would refer to those who feel that parenthood absolves them from the rules of polite society and that they do not need to show considerations for the space, feelings, and needs of others since their convenience trumps everything else. We know that all parents aren't breeders.

That was unintentional.

Lotus,

that is up to the individual. I used hormone BC but was no longer able to tolerate it so I got my tubes tied.  It is not easy to get a tubal when you are under 30 with no children. I had to go to different doctors until I found someone willing to do it.  Permanent sterilization is not the right choice for everyone but it was ideal for me.

"You just can't deny biology."  

Yes, I can.  Thanks to a couple of Essure implants, I can deny biology every time my boyfriend and I feel like denying it.  Biology is not destiny - just because I have a uterus does not mean it ever has to be tenanted.  This is NOT a tragedy on any level; it is wholly absurd to mourn for something that never existed.

"On an individual level reproduction is a choice, on a societal level, it is not."

No, sorry.  In a free country, society doesn't get to dictate as to whether or not an individual woman has kids.  Don't even TRY to tell the CF that having kids isn't optional.  We prove that it IS.

There was a fellow who tried to force women to increase the population by draconian measures not all that long ago - he tried to make the choice to remain without children illegal and impossible.  He was also so hated by his own people that they machine-gunned him and his wife to death in 1989.  They're STILL warehousing unwanted children in Romania.  

Do YOU want to be a child born to a woman who had you because society mandated it?  

No?  Really?  Why not?  You're willing for other kids to have to endure it, so why not you?

Besides, even if 20 to 25 percent of American women decide they don't want ANY kids, it will do real, appreciable harm to NO ONE.  You can't be harmed by that which does not exist.

In short, if parents really-truly want to get along with CF people, STOP pressuring us to have kids we don't want.  If everyone stopped  aggressively pushing parenthood on me (and sometimes outright verbally abusing me when I don't go for it) I'd buy the world a Coke and keep it company.

Why don't SAHM's ever stay at home? Every time I try to enjoy a cup of expensive latte and a magazine at the local coffee shop, some stay-at-home mom feels the need to bring her screaming demon with her to bug everyone in the entire place.

Stay at home moms, do everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, a favor, and just, stay at home. If you want the label, be prepared to do what is expected. Stay. Home.  

Sorry so many people have to waste their money on schools they aren't using. I'm eagerly awaiting my refund on every government program I don't agree with, as well as the fire departments and such that I've never personally gotten any benefit from.

As for "pressure" to have kids ... just keep on keeping on ignoring the BS, those of the moo/breeder posts. I'm sure there are more people than you realize who are thrilled beyond belief that you aren't having children.

"I'm sure there are more people than you realize who are thrilled beyond belief that you aren't having children."

Believe me, those people's thrilled that we're not having children is NOTHING compared to your average CF person's thrill at not having children!

I think I'll go write an article about how I'm completely okay with the existence of African-Americans, and put it up there next to a little caricature of a minstrel in blackface.  That'll really make me look supportive.

I'm so pleased that I have your permission to exist, Patti Nichols.  That means the world to me.  

Honestly, does anyone think that parents need yet ANOTHER parental advocacy group?  I don't know why parents keep selling and promoting parenthood to everyone else like they just invented it this hour.  Truisms about selling sand to the Saudis come to mind when  I see yet another group called "Moms Rising" or summat, when moms are already risen so high that they're all but deified in the United States,  The decision not to have children = work discrimination if not outright pariah status.

You gals already get family leave, maternity leave, nursing breaks, nursing rooms, preferred parking spots in some areas, free public education for your kids, tax deductions, and the automatic assumption of virtue.  What more do you NEED?!

"What more do you NEED?!"

That's just it - it's no longer about need. After all, there have been some 50 billion people born and reared to successful adulthood throughout human history - all without the modern perqs and conveniences that modern, entitled parents demand. How on earth did all those parents managed to make it work, all while contending with predation, uncontrolled disease, etc? They just did; we, all 6-plus billion of us, are proof of that.

The human race needs no help surviving, unless that help includes limiting population growth beyond the earth's carrying capacity. If anything, the unchilded should be applauded and given tax breaks. We're the ones *not* driving the biosphere into the wall at breakneck speed.

As for "pressure" to have kids ... just keep on keeping on ignoring the BS, those of the moo/breeder posts. I'm sure there are more people than you realize who are thrilled beyond belief that you aren't having children.

That's what we refer to as a 'reverse Bingo': the one where people say they are glad we aren't breeding so we can take ourselves out of the gene pool (ummmm...it's not hereditary, you idiot, our parents obviously weren't cf and for all you know your own kids may well turn out to be). Just because you replicate your DNA doesn't mean you are doing the world any favors. In fact, research consistently shows that more educated people have fewer children and are more likely to have no children. The sad part is, the stupid are breeding like rabbits.

This board has gotten completely out of hand. Last time I checked this board and this website are for PARENTS you selfish little snots! I do not come  onto your child free boards and start complaining about all reasons why I think you people are wrong, so kindly piss off. The fact that you have the gall to come on this site and and try and convince us that our children are the bane of society is ridiculous. On that note, if you want to dish it then you can take it too.

The facts about you people

1. You are incredibly selfish- There, someone said it. You need to own up to it and get it through your head. I am so glad you people

aren't having kids because you are sooo selfish. Just don't try and make some excuse that you are not.

2. You forget that you were once a child.

so you get inconvenienced by a child occasionally, tough. I hate to break it to you, but you were a child once too and I am certain that you annoyed the hell out of some other people then. It is called KARMA, get over it

3. You see to forget that someone paid for you to go school back in the day.

I doubt very much that every single CF person went to private school, so that means someone else footed the bill for your education and your school and your soccer field when you were a youth. Everyone pays for them and you don't get to opt out now that you have decided not to have kids. Cross apply all this to the selfishness argument again. What the hell is wrong with you people?

4.  As to the unfair working conditions

Can you be any more ridiculous? The reason we get those things is because, WE NEED THEM! No one wants to spend thirty minutes in the restroom pumping breast milk because we like it, we do it because we have to. All you CF workers have it easy. You don't have to fight the mommy track stereotype or have to defend your job when you take time off to BIRTH YOUR CHILD. It is far harder on the other end so quit your whining.

5. Grow some empathy

You people are so bitter about everything. Never, not once in any of these boards have any of you people acknowledged that you were once children too. If your parents hadn't been "breeders" then you wouldn't be here. It was hard to raise you and you were probably as bad as all the kids out there today. I bet some of you were unholy terrors. I bet some of your mothers gave up careers to raise you and some of your parents probably scrimped to get by. All so you could be born and raised to be the selfish people you are today. I don't want any of you to have kids, but I do want you to empathies and try and remember that you did not come from a pod, but rather a uterus.

That being said, get off this board, get off this website or I will start a campaign to get all the mothers I know on all the mommy blogs available to start bringing their kids to your child free events.  

BINGO!

Nothing makes me feel more empathic toward the plight of modern parents than being addressed as "you people," called "selfish," and threatened, especially by an English-composition-challenged entitlement mommie.

Childfree folk don't need to "acknowledge that we were once children too" - one would think that was glaringly obvious to anyone.  Why does that obvious biological fact require special validation?  Do you need us to acknowledge that water is wet or the sky is up, too?

But what does the fact that we were once children ourselves have to do with anything?  Many of us didn't like children when we WERE children ourselves, and couldn't wait to grow up.

The childfree weren't put on earth to accommodate mummies, folks.  You're going to have to find validation for your choices as parents from someone other than us.  No kidding.

Wow. What an interesting direction *this* took. I'd like to thank our childfree friends for coming by to share their insights.

You're going to have to find validation for your choices as parents from someone other than us.  

See, that is exactly were you are wrong. YOU are on this board looking for validation and vindication for your short comings, not US.

Why are you here???

We are not the ones asking for ANYTHING. We are not threatened. We are the majority. I don't need anything from you people but to get off this site keep to yourselves and leave us alone.

as for the

English-composition-challenged entitlement mommie

comment

Nice spelling of MOMMY, hypocrite

"Last time I checked this board and this website are for PARENTS you selfish little snots!"

----------------------

Don't you just love it when breeders talk to us like their children?

BTW, I wasn't raised by breeders who had nothing else better to do all day than kvetch about how wonderful it is to sleep with all the kids in the bed while dad gets the couch. I was raised by two PARENTS who didn't take me out past my bedtime and didn't make their co-workers pick up their slack because they had to babysit me at the bus stop.

What would all of you breeders do if you didn't have a website to discuss the childfree on? Maybe, just maybe, you'd clean your house, hose out your minivan, and watch your kids.

"That being said, get off this board, get off this website or I will start a campaign to get all the mothers I know on all the mommy blogs available to start bringing their kids to your child free events."

Someone call the waaahhhmmbulance! Moomy's pewshus self-uhsteam has been bwoozeded!

You don't *need* the perqs - you demand then because you want validation and you want to elevate yourself above those you perceive as inferior. As has already been observed, smart people don't [over]breed.

"I am so glad you people aren't having kids because you are sooo selfish. Just don't try and make some excuse that you are not."

Actually, I'm not having kids because I'm a Type 1 diabetic, which means my kidneys might not be able to take the stress of pregnancy, and I might pass the same disease on to my kids.

I know another woman who's not having kids because she had to have a hysterectomy due to uterine cancer.

I know someone else who's not having kids because she has a family history of schizophrenia and post-partum psychosis.

Nice of you to tar all of "us people" with the same "selfish" brush, though.

"We are not the ones asking for ANYTHING. We are not threatened. We are the majority. I don't need anything from you people but to get off this site keep to yourselves and leave us alone."

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Okay. Can I have my taxes that funded your after school programs back then? I'll promise to go away as soon as you say that the check is in the mail.

"No one wants to spend thirty minutes in the restroom pumping breast milk because we like it, we do it because we have to"

--------------------

Bullpuckey!

You do it because it gets you attention. Ever since you popped out your crotch trophy, all that attention went from you to it. Now what is there to do? Oh! I know! You'll breastfeed and that way you can make a big deal out of having to pump at work every day! Yes! You'll have everyone talking about YOU again!

ANd you call US selfish? Pot, meet the kettle....

It's called formula. Millions of babies drink it every day and they don't die of malnutrition. If it's that much of a pain to breastfeed, then get some bottles and nipples, and do what your mother did in the fifties and sixties and buy some Enfamil.

It's called progress. And it's given us things besides the internet.

"You do it because it gets you attention. Ever since you popped out your crotch trophy, all that attention went from you to it. Now what is there to do? Oh! I know! You'll breastfeed and that way you can make a big deal out of having to pump at work every day! Yes! You'll have everyone talking about YOU again!"

WOW

My god, what has happened to you that was so bad as to come up with this kind of argument?

Are you just being sensational or do you really believe something so crass?

From one of the "other" bloggers in babble.com:

http://www.parentsbehavingbadly.com/

Yuppers. That's your "colleague" showcasing all kinds of disturbed, SELFISH parents.

Hey! I don't even need to go to another page to show you, but I know most parents are lazy, so:

"Jay Allen (a.k.a. The Zero Boss) was previously a Managing Editor at Weblogs, Inc./AOL. Jay and his wife live near Seattle, where their six children and one grandson prevent life from ever getting dull. He created Parents Behaving Badly, a daily chronicle of misbehaving moms and dads."

But but but, I thought being a parent makes one a better person???? I'm confuuuused. I need a naaaaaap. WAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!

Having children and breastfeeding them is a choice.  You do it because you want to, yet you don't want to be inconvenienced by that choice.  You can't have it both ways and not expect others to be annoyed by it.

It's the same with smokers vs. nonsmokers. When someone gets to run out to smoke 1/4 of every hour and another has no such excuse and must keep working it isn't fair to the one who didn't make the choice to smoke.

"My god, what has happened to you that was so bad as to come up with this kind of argument?"

--------

I was breastfed.

Wow. You parents are really a piece of work. You're asking why we "just can't get all along", Patti ? Well, what do you expect ? You yourself obviously want us CF folks to be some sort of Uncle Toms who are "allowed" to exist by the almighty parents but immediately get put in their place when they dare to speak up about their rights. I'm sorry for you that you don't realize how priviledged you are in this day and age. And the pendulum has swung way too far in the direction of parental perks. So spare us the fake surprise about the CFers who finally are fed up with your ilk. Too bad your delicate breeder feelings have been hurt by those bad CF types who have the audacity to express THEIR OWN feelings on THEIR OWN internet boards. I'll tell you a secret, Patti: better get used to us since you're going to hear a lot more from us in the coming years ! And no, as long as you keep getting more and more perks while we don't get a fair deal we can't just all get along.

But but but, I thought being a parent makes one a better person???? I'm confuuuused. I need a naaaaaap. WAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!

Come on,

Is this one person making all these comments? And as far as being lazy, if being a parent is lazy then that would make you a sloth by comparison. And if that post is any measure, about as smart as one as well.

I am so tired of the "you were a kid once" babble.  I didn't have a choice.  I didn't ask to be born nor did I ask to go to public school.  But luckily as an adult I do have a choice--and that's not to have children!

Explain how being CF is selfish--and there are just as many reasons that having children is selfish......

"But then I hear about childfree people whose podcast signoff is "Keep from breeding!"

****

Why are you listening to a childfree person's podcast then? I guess "Live and let live" only applies to parents and screw the rest of them if they don't want to hop on the Happy Parent bandwagon.

Deanna: I think it's very clear that you have no idea what I, myself, want. But I wish you well and I support, one hundred percent, your choice not to have children. I might even support some of the policy ideas you have. Balance is important to me.

What I don't support is namecalling (on either side--some of the comments from Babble parents are really upsetting me here) and that's what I was questioning in my original post. The automatically defensive position, going straight to "crotch droppings" and "moo" is really offputting and counterproductive.

I'm coming to realize that I have no idea the depth of what is inflicted by society on those who do not wish to have children. Nor, unfortunately, have the comments from CF visitors brought me any closer to understanding.

I'm sorry anyone believes it's patronizing of me to express that I have no problem with the decision to remain child-free. It's no less of a fact for that.

I love how parents can have all sorts of play groups, advocacy groups and the likes, but the same parents want the CF to not have any kind of mass social interaction with one another. What's wrong, moms and dads - afraid we might one day outnumber you or something?

You want us to all get along? The solution is simple: Once you quit criticizing our life decisions, we'll quit criticizing yours. Of course, that likely will never happen because so many parents feel threatened by the fact that there are people who did not choose the path of parenthood, which means less validation for the people who did make that choice.

Just because humans are biologically able to spawn doesn't mean those who choose not to are evil. Does it ever cross your minds [parents]  that some people may not make the best parents? Who would be benefiting from a situation where someone who dislikes children has one, and said person neglects, abuses, or otherwise harms that child?

I also have grown tired of the "You were once a child" blather. There were a lot of things I once was, but that is no excuse for me to foist that option on others. I was once obese - does that mean I should encourage everyone I know to eat and get grossly fat? I was once too shy to stand up for my own rights - should I tell everyone to let people walk all over them and never speak a word in opposition of anything? That argument does not and never will fly.

"I am so tired of the "you were a kid once" babble.  I didn't have a choice.  I didn't ask to be born nor did I ask to go to public school."

Fine, you didn't have a choice. But neither did any of the people who had to fund your education. It is a pubic policy issue. The state has a great interest in turning out educated and well rounded students. That is good pubic policy, we have to fund it in the same way that it is good public policy to fund rehab centers and elder care. And whether you want to admit it or not, you were a child once and you don't get to run away from it just because you don't want to have kids

As far as the selfishness argument.

It is not necessarily meant to be slur.

I understand that people don't want to have kids. Given the amount of pressure and pure effort and sacrifice involved with having a child, only those who truly want to be parents should bear them

However, I want people to admit that the reasons they are doing it are selfish, excluding all those who are physically unable to do it or have enough sense to not pass undesirable traits to children. For you I offer my support and applause, those are mature and hard decisions to make and you should know I respect you for making them. But for all the able bodied adults out there. The reasons you don't want to have children all strike me as selfish. You don't want to go through the pain and the mess of being pregnant. You can't imagine dealing with the mess and inconvenience of raising a child. You would rather spend the money that would raise a child on yourself or your spouse. All these reasons are selfish reasons, that doesn't mean that you should have children.

I just want CF people to own it, own your selfishness.

The only reason that really eats at me are the people who claim they don't want to bring children into this world. I feel like people who are smart enough to recognize that the world is a bad place are more obligated to raise children to help change it.

Patti, if you really have no idea about the treatment we CF get from society in general and if you're so supportive of us then why did you feel the need to bash us again with your little article ? It doesn't sound much like support and understanding to me.

What I really don't understand is how it could escape your attention that the namecalling which upsets you so much isn't directed at considerate parents who do a good job. On all CF boards I've ever frequented words like "moo" are only used to address typical breeder behaviour. And I've taken part in some boards where CF and parents both post - usually the angriest posts about bad breeders there were coming from the parents ! But yet, it's only us CFers who are getting accused of being out of line and using insults.

There's also no word about who started the insults first. For years and years we had to listen to parents calling us "selfish", "immature" and other choice words. So is it so hard to understand that we finally have enough of that and react with some angry words as well ? I believe you that your intention was to find common ground but honestly, it came out as yet another insult.

Spartic99, and your reasons to have children are not selfish in any way ? Please. You're beyond ridiculous.

@ Patti: see what I mean ? People like Spartic99 are exactly the reason why we can't get along. As long as this sort of entitlement attitude paired with contempt for us CFers is so blatantly obvious among parents we CF have no choice than to fight back with the same weapons.

I just want CF people to own it, own your selfishness.

I'll gladly own it. But, parents too need to own that having kids is equally selfish.

It's all about what we want in our lives.  

As for the world being a bad place I can understand the logic of responsible people attempting to make it better, but they can't and shouldn't all expect to do it by having kids.  some of the greatest people in the world have horrid kids.

Albert Einstein for one.  His kid was institutionalized because he was insane.  His child was a burden on society and Albert was a great benefactor.

There has to be a starting point to making improvements, some people can help more if they aren't tied down with children to raise.  There are no guarantees that any person's kid will turn out great or even good.

A lot of people can't admit that they are completely average and their child hasn't much hope of ever being more than that.

I'm completely average.  Nothing I do in my life whether I had chosen to have kids or not is going to make a signifigant impact on anything.  

But, by my not having children my life is easier and there is no child to burden others and become nothing more than completely average.  

Yeah, Deanna. The commenters do not necessarily reflect my opinion, nor do I reflect theirs. I really do fail to see where my piece was bashing though and would be appreciative, and relieved, if it could be pointed out to me. I did note certain types of statement that rub me the wrong way, a point which has been reinforced throughout the comments here. I *do* understand what draws any human being toward social groups that reflect our values and interests. I simply don't understand the vilification of one group's choice by the opposition, and again, that certainly includes bashing of nonparents by parents.

I do think the decision not to have children is selfish. I think the decision *to* have children is selfish--I mean, by definition, both ways, it's an utterly personal choice! But I also think we all have a certain moral obligation toward society as a whole, and that includes parents and nonparents, children and adults.

Twelve Things Parents and Wannabe Parents Can Do to Better Get Along with the Childfree:

12) Banish the phrases “You’ll change your mind!” “It’s different when they’re your own!” “I used to think like you, but now I have X number of children!” and “As a parent, I [insert opinion here]” from your vocabulary. Read a Breeder Bingo card and just don’t use the bingoes, despite the temptation. Ever.

11) Stop assuming that your parental status makes you somehow more authentic, mature, or intelligent than your unchilded peers. That unchilded teacher has a Ph.D and you have a kid. That means she knows more about education that you do, so get over it.

10) Stop allowing your kids to behave in a disruptive manner in public. The CF couple over there is paying for their dinner the same as you are, and they’re just as entitled to a nice night out as you. Everybody else in that theatre paid for a ticket too, and they don’t want to listen to your kid’s wailing. Teach your kids out-in-public manners, or if they’re too young to behave, leave ’em home with a sitter.

9) Stop insisting that “family friendly” work policies ONLY apply to parents with children. I have a disabled brother who I’m helping to support – why can’t I take family leave to help take care of him? Acknowledge the fact that other people have families who depend on them too, even if their dependents are not their minor children.

8) Your religion may prohibit birth control and say that children are mandatory – but in all brutal honesty, that means NOTHING to me. I am not a member of your religion and I do not have to be in any way affected by its rules. This is a free country with no mandated state religion, so you must acknowledge that I can disregard the rules of any religion at will.

7) Stop asking married people “How many kids to you have?” and start asking “Do you have kids?” If the answer is no, acknowledge it and move on. You are not entitled to an explanation as to why that married couple doesn’t have kids, so don’t expect one.

6) Stop assuming that all CF people have unlimited spare time and money because we don’t have children. Also, stop assuming that we all want to use that imaginary unlimited spare time and money babysitting and buying presents for your kids.

5) Stop using your kids as an excuse for your own bad behavior. NEVER cut to the front of the line with the excuse that your kids are waiting for you at home. Being a parent does not mean that you get an automatic pass on good manners or civil behavior. If you’ve ever played the Parent Card to get your way, stop it now.

4) Knock it off with the knee-jerk hostile reaction to anything that might harm “the children” in some nebulous way. Remember the angry mob who attacked a paediatrician’s home because they mistook “paediatrician” for “pedophile.” If someone’s trying to get you riled up “for the children” check out that instigators’ agenda before you start acting like an angry lemming.

3) STOP trying to date professed CF people thinking “I’ll change his/her mind,” or “I’m so cute, she’s GOTTA want my baby eventually,” or “I’ll just go off the Pill without his knowledge, then he’ll want to be a parent!” or “My kids are so cute, s/he’ll fall in love with them.” Just as no woman is sexy enough to “convert” a gay man, I can’t think of any guy who makes me want to get my tubal reversed. If your date says, I don’t want kids EVER, believe him/her and move on.

2) Stop flipping out if groups of like-minded CF people put up support boards on the Internet. There are support boards for all kinds of demographics: people with specific diseases, people with specific interests, gay men, lesbians, adoptees, married people, divorced people, people of certain races, of certain religions, of various political groups, and, of course, for people with children. The existence of boards where people who don’t have and don’t want children can congregate does not hurt ANYONE. We’re just talking to each other, not plotting to blow up daycares. Get over it.

1) STOP STOP STOP imagining that you get a vote as far as anyone else’s reproductive status! When you urge someone else to have a child, you have no idea what his or her family life was like, what his/her medical history is like, or what that child will do to his or her life. Yes, your kids might be great, but there’s absolutely no guarantee that the other person’s would be as well. All you accomplish by pestering someone else to have kids (especially when s/he openly professes that s/he doesn’t want any) is making a nuisance of yourself. CF people have enough opportunities to feel invalidated and misunderstood in this world without you adding to it.

So there you have it. Follow the above guidelines, and you’ll be surprised at how many Parent, Not Breeder RAVES you’ll get from your CF friends.

C'mon, guys, the whole "You were a kid" and "someone was forced to pay for your school" arguments are really lame, and here's why:

When I was a kid, there was a social contract that parents understood and respected. If I bothered another adult and that adult complained to my parents or publicly corrected me, my parents supported *the offended adult* and whipped my ass into line. No "How DARE you correct MY child!", no "That's assault - I'm calling the police on you", etc. - just cooperation between parents in reigning in a disobedient kid.

Contrast that with today's parents, whose first reaction is suspicion, accusation and a phone call to the cops, because someone dared look askance at little Snotford while the threw a rock through a plate glass window. Today's parent doesn't look to learn from Snotford's arrest, they look to blame the storekeeper. Or the brick manufacturer or the air itself. Anyone will do and it's neither the parent nor Snotford's fault.

*That* is why your arguments about the favors done in the past hold no water today. Parents today do not respect any semblance of a social contract. The unchilded are shown absolutely *no* respect as children are allowed to run amok anytime, anyplace. Dare to speak up and get spat upon, assaulted or worse.

When parents start respecting others and teaching their kids some semblance of respect for elders and self control, then the unchilded might relent on the complaints. Until then, we are rightfully complaining about being short-changed on a one-way social contract.

Only, not all of them want to extend the same live and let live philosophy toward those of us who have chosen to bring children into the world, and it's hard to control the visceral reaction to a group of people who are speaking out against what I have done (having kids) and what I've chosen to fight for (the rights of parents in our society, via groups like MomsRising).

Here is part of it.  There aren't CF 'advocates'.  No one is saying 'nobody should have children'.  We are just saying that your choice shouldn't involve us in detrimental ways.

What you have 'chosen to fight for' flies in the face of what we have chosen to fight for.  We want EQUALITY, you want parents' rights.  

We cannot live and let live when you want flexible hours for your life choice 9to have kids) and we are not afforded the same.

Workers' personal lives should be completely separate from work in utopia.  but this is reality and life spills over.

I may not have kids, but if my pets need veterinary care I expect to be given the same right to leave work to take care of them as parents are afforded to care for their children.  I'll probably get bashe 'children are not animals' and all, but it is a living creature who is entirely dependent upon me so the concept is the same regardless of species.

If you change your focus from "Parents' Rights' to "Employees' Rights you would have much support from the CF.

JustDucky, thank you for a thoughtful and informative post.

"We are not the ones asking for ANYTHING. We are not threatened. We are the majority. I don't need anything from you people but to get off this site keep to yourselves and leave us alone."

THen why all the "family friendly" perks that aren't family friendly at all; they are parent friendly and the rest of us be damned. ( and I personally felt this when my dad died. I got phone calls on the day of his funeral to come to work because a mother wanted to go her kid's dance recital. SHe failed to ask off in time -so I was supposed to miss Dad's funeral to accomadate her. Families come in many sizes and shapes and each one needs it's own accomadation at times, age should not be the deciding factor...the seriousness of the situation should be.)

"However, I want people to admit that the reasons they are doing it are selfish,"

By the same token Cf'ers could say that parents become parents for selfish reasons.

And there are many unselfish reasons for not becoming a parent, beyond medical reasons. How about the person who is taking care of a parent\partner\friend\anyone while they slowly die from things like ALS or MS or suffer through a mental illness? THey are selfish for not having kids - even tho that would mean they can't care for another? What about those who take religious vows? And it's not just the Catholics that have folks taking vows of Celibacy, nor only Christians. How about the Cf'er who spends most of their time caring for the already exsisting children of siblings or friends who can't take care of them for various reason, or who have died? I know More than one Cf'er who falls in each of these categories, I also know a CF'er who was raped and who was so affected by that that she literally can't stand the thought of sex, even years later. She's supposed to have kids so as not to be "selfish"?

The fact is that there are many good, reasonable and unselfish resons to refrain from having kids as there are to have them...and the CF descion is rarely ( if ever) undertaken lightly, because of the reactions we get from society.  We DO face discrimination, anger, and stuff you can't imagine and rarely want to hear about...and when we do talk about it - we usually get told the same type of things that are going on here. No we won't all get along until parents and Cf'ers are willing to HEAR what the otherside is actually saying. Not what we THINK the other is saying. There are legimate beefs on BOTH sides.

I think what a lot of people are missing here is the fact that we as parents have never stated that our reasons for having children are not selfish. I wallow in my selfishness, I wallow in it. I want my genes to continue, I love seeing my features mirrored in my son. I cannot describe the feeling of his little arms wrapped around my neck in the middle of the night. I relish the idea of him helping me through my old age. I own every self indulgent second of it. And I don't apologize for a it. That is the difference between parents and Cfers. I don't have to explain anything to anyone but all you people can do is defend yourselves and say you are not selfish.

And the reason so many parents get up in arms and defensive is the attitude CFers take toward our children. You don't get to make believe that my kid doesn't exist. If I want to take him to a restaurant I will. If he cries on the bus or in starbucks I will do everything to comfort him I can but it is a fact of life that kids exist and occasionally they put people out. There have always been bad and misbehaved children, "contract with society" be damned. Some people are bad parents, but that is not what is being discussed here. I refuse to have my child punished and limited because you want your quiet time.

We all want equality, but mothers are still working their way the ladder in the workforce. After being excluded for years, we are only now getting what we deserve. The CA family leave act allows people leave for family issues, be it death or birth or caring for an ill relative. This is what I want for America.  Lets not take every horror story of the workplace and call them the rule instead of the exception.

If you are really bothered by the questions, grow a thicker skin. If the worst thing someone ever asks you is "how many kids do you have?" then count your blessings

When the CFer becomes a "Breeder" [link]

Out of sheer curiosity: how does a CFer remain child-free? No contraceptive device works 100%. So what's the best way? Celibacy? Sterilization? Hysterectomy?

And what happens if your method fails?

This question isn't meant to judge. I'm honestly curious.

Tuesday, March 06, 2007 11:30 AM by The Lotus

...............

If you want to learn how to avoid pregnancy, may I suggest you read a fifth-grade biology book or, in the alternative,  since you appear to be Internet savvy, you can always Google "Birth Control" where I am confident you will find numerous methods detailing pregnancy prevention and their statistical analysis.  

If the above does not satisfy your curiosity, you might want to Google "Abortion", "Pregnancy Termination", and/or "How to End Human Pregnancy."  

If you still find nothing that answers your "non-judgemental" question, I suggest you speak to a qualified medical professional.

Not every act of sexual intercourse needs to produce a human being.

"When the CFer becomes a "Breeder" "

CFers do not become breeders.  Or parents, for that matter.  CF people do not have kids and do not want them.  People who do not have kids and want them are called "childLESS", or parents-in-waiting.  A CF person would never carry a pregnancy to term if there was any alternative.

"Out of sheer curiosity: how does a CFer remain child-free?"

The same way everybody else does.  Norplant, the Pill, condoms, abstinence, you name it.  It's an entirely individual choice for each one of us.

"No contraceptive device works 100%. So what's the best way? Celibacy? Sterilization? Hysterectomy?"

A significant percentage of my CF friends have chosen surgical sterilization.  Lots of people choose redundant birth control, i.e. the Pill and condoms, or Depo-Provera and condoms.

"And what happens if your method fails?"

A trip to the nearest abortion clinic, I assume, although I have never heard of a sterilized CF person becoming pregnant or impregnating anyone by accident.  

But seeing as how childfree people are among the most conscientious users of birth control and tend to like the most permanent and foolproof methods of birth control, I doubt if we're the ones lining up for abortions.

Quoted by Sparticus99:

"However, I want people to admit that the reasons they are doing it are selfish, excluding all those who are physically unable to do it or have enough sense to not pass undesirable traits to children. For you I offer my support and applause, those are mature and hard decisions to make and you should know I respect you for making them. But for all the able bodied adults out there. The reasons you don't want to have children all strike me as selfish. You don't want to go through the pain and the mess of being pregnant. You can't imagine dealing with the mess and inconvenience of raising a child. You would rather spend the money that would raise a child on yourself or your spouse. All these reasons are selfish reasons, that doesn't mean that you should have children.

I just want CF people to own it, own your selfishness.

The only reason that really eats at me are the people who claim they don't want to bring children into this world. I feel like people who are smart enough to recognize that the world is a bad place are more obligated to raise children to help change it."

I'm a little late to this whole discussion, and have many comments to make, but I cannot believe the condescending tone of this poster's comment.

I think it would be great if ONLY able bodied people could give birth. We'd have a perfect world. Unfortunately, it seems the complete opposite  has happend. Many people don't take the time to think if they are financially or emotionally prepared for another human being in their care.

For someone to call me selfish while extolling the cavalier attitudes such as this poster is truly polarizing.

Quite frankly, I'm disturbed by this person's willingness to make all women into incubators.

The world is a bad place because of all the people that had children who shouldn't have. Why do we want to perpetuate that?

How can I be "selfish" toward a yet to be born person? Someone who does not even exist? The fact that I'm not selfish toward real life people makes no difference to these breeders. It's all about the pweshus (yet to exist) baby.

And what is more selfish than the bingo "Who's gonna take care of you when you get old?" So one has children for the purpose of insuring a future caretaker or two? How selfless! I guess the upside of having so many future caretakers is that you will no longer see old people suffering in solitude in nursing homes around the country. I remember when there use to have nursing homes filled with thousands of seniors neglected by their kids. Not anymore!

"How can I be "selfish" toward a yet to be born person? Someone who does not even exist? The fact that I'm not selfish toward real life people makes no difference to these breeders. It's all about the pweshus (yet to exist) baby."

Yes, I too I love it when I'm criticized and called names for refusing to share my stuff with the nonexistent.

(Guess all those donations I make to the Humane Society and Reading is Fundamental every year don't mean squat.)

Oh I get it. I'm selfish because I want to avoid the (avoidable) hard work of raising a child.

Why do you avoid speeding cars? Are you so selfish to not want to spend years in physical therapy after getting hit by one? You want to walk around without a limp while most people are walking with crutches? How selfish of you!

I know the above analogy is not accurate but it is illustrative. Yes, I don't want to deal with the life-sacrifice of having kids. I don't want to assume that burden especially since I'm under no obligation whatsoever to assume that burden. I don't think it's selfish. It's common sense. You don't avoid speeding cars because you're selfish, do you?

I want to have loud sex in every room instead of quietly in the bedroom once a month. I want to go out with friends 30 minutes after being invited instead of looking for a babysitter. I want to watch Hostel 2. Don't call me selfish because I don't want to watch Happy Feet!

No one forced you guys to have kids. So don't call me selfish for avoiding something I had no obligation to assume in the first place.

Admit it, you are selfish with yourself. You don't have to be pregnant or father a child to be selfish with your pweshus time, your money, your body. Your decision not to have children is a selfish decision to protect these aspects of your life. In the same vein my decision to have a child was a very selfish, self satisfying decision that I wanted to have a child. At least I can admit it.

I asked questions to elicit honest answers, not insults to my inteliigence. And if you're "HAPPY," bless the child that is not yours.

Lots of posters brought up a good point. Why are CFers even on this site? If you hate parents and children so much, exercise your right to click elsewhere. No matter what you do or say, people will continue to have children. Someone has to. If you choose not to, so what? If I choose to have more, SO WHAT?

Get over yourself, I'll get over myself, and whomever offered to buy the world a coke can add a splash of rum to mine.

[quote]Lots of posters brought up a good point. Why are CFers even on this site? If you hate parents and children so much, exercise your right to click elsewhere. [/quote]

Let's just say one of the editors to this site made a biiiig mistake. And basically the rest of you are paying for it. Not yor fault but this site gets no sympathy.

"I just want CF people to own it, own your selfishness."

And I reserve the right to not care.

Look, sweetie, I already KNOW I own my selfishness - nothing you have said is any kind of revelation to me.  I also own my unselfishness, my altruism, my creativity, my happiness, my bitchiness, my kindness, and most importantly, myself.

That said, however, I'd rather have people call me selfish than try to disprove it by having a child I DON'T WANT.  I can get away from the accusations of selfishness by hanging up the phone, walking away, ending the friendship, or turning off the Internet.  If I have a kid I don't want, I can't EVER get away from it.  Plus then the selfishness-brayers will always find something else to criticize me about, "What?  You only have ONE?  Don't you want to give little ReligiousandSocietalduteigh a brother or sister?"

So it's no kids, and "selfish" from the peanut gallery.  Better that than be the next lead-in story about Shaken Baby Syndrome.

"I feel like people who are smart enough to recognize that the world is a bad place are more obligated to raise children to help change it."

And I reserve the right not to feel obligated to raise children at all, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

"Let's just say one of the editors to this site made a biiiig mistake. And basically the rest of you are paying for it. Not yor fault but this site gets no sympathy."

Renee, for the record, I don't think it's a mistake at all to have written about this. I think some excellent points were raised in the comments here, amongst the mudslinging. There are always people who are more interested in being provocative than in learning or in teaching, but I'm grateful for those who did contribute in a postive way.

I am friends with a couple and have been for about 15 years.  They a long time ago decided to have no children.  Over the years the pressure of this decision has gotten greater and greater as now all of their friends have had children.  I know for a fact that they can't seem to get past the comments and odd looks from people who don't understand their choice.  I've seen for myself people trying to talk them into procreating.  And I think it's really great that they would have a group to help them deal with the pressures of choosing not to have children in our society.

With that being said I think the arguments that involve CFers feeling screwed by child-friendly policies at work or via taxes are utterly ridiculous.  I will never be on welfare or need the government to help me via the various social services, with the exception of public schools, that the government provides.  I will also never need 1/2 of the healthcare services that I pay for at my husband's company.  And the fact of the matter is, there are probably services out there that I'm paying for that are helping some of you childless people.  

But I don't mind because it all evens out in the end now does it not?

And one more thing...Moo Cow?  Breeder?  Really?  That's what you're calling me?  Wow...that's pretty low and really, really degrading, to both you and I.

On last thing I forgot to include but meant to...

To all of you criticizing the CFer's for visiting a "child friendly site:" Please!  Give me a friggin' break.  Let's see, how can I explain this point.  It's like a non-Christian living in the middle of the Bible belt and trying to find friends who don't go to church.  It's about impossible.

When you're the minority and you live among a majority, you're bound to be friends or readers of those you don't automatically have absolutely everything in common with.

OK...now I'm done with my soapbox.  Anyone else need it?

I understand that people don't want to have kids. Given the amount of pressure and pure effort and sacrifice involved with having a child, only those who truly want to be parents should bear them

However, I want people to admit that the reasons they are doing it are selfish, excluding all those who are physically unable to do it or have enough sense to not pass undesirable traits to children. For you I offer my support and applause, those are mature and hard decisions to make and you should know I respect you for making them. But for all the able bodied adults out there. The reasons you don't want to have children all strike me as selfish. You don't want to go through the pain and the mess of being pregnant. You can't imagine dealing with the mess and inconvenience of raising a child. You would rather spend the money that would raise a child on yourself or your spouse. All these reasons are selfish reasons, that doesn't mean that you should have children.

I just want CF people to own it, own your selfishness.

******************

These are the types of comments that cause us to have our own groups and message boards.

Really, CFers are selfish? Honestly I can't think of anything MORE selfish than creating another living creature simply for your own desires! Don't say it is why you wanted to share your love, if that was all it is, you could give a foster child a home. The fact is, many people WANT children of their own. I understand why people want to have children, but it doesn't make the act any less selfish.

I'm not a militant CF-er. I don't dislike children or care about Breast Feeding in public. I don't roll my eyes every time a child makes a peep. We're just a normal couple whose lifestyle isn't conducive to having children. We're both military. I've been in for 10 years and my husband a little less. He's been deployed for 25 of the last 40 months. We'll both be in for another 10 years and that isn't the lifestyle I would want to raise a child in.  I am so sorry I made such a selfish decision.

I'm OK with my life and my decision. And about 99% of the time (less if I'm at Wal Mart) I'm OK with anyone's decisions, especially when they don't affect me. What puts many of us on the defensive is being questioned over and over about the decisions we make. Some feel the need to procreate and others don't. One isn't inherently better, they're just different.  

Reading over this thread made me want to bang my head against the desk a few times.

If a woman is happily pregnant, I'll congratulate her, just like i did for my cousin and girls I know.  A wanted child is a great thing.

If a woman is NOT happy about the (usually unexpected) pregnancy, then I ask her what I can do to help.

I guess I should mention I am also a female at this point.

I don't want kids.  I don't want to pass on some bad medical and psychological traits I ended up with.  However, I hope I can get the time off one day to take care of my parents when they are older, or help my brother if he's ill.  Family isn't all about the individual taking care of people younger than one's self, or children one gave conceived.  If I need half a day because my mom's really sick, how is that different a mom taking work off to take care of her kid?

I don't think it's selfish to have a sense of self preservation and self destiny.  I know that I wouldn't do well with kids.  I hope one day, however that every child brought into the world is wanted, cared for, and love by the people surrounding it.

I don't want kids, and I may not care for them.  However, I don't ever wish ill upon them.

And one more thing...Moo Cow?  Breeder?  Really?  That's what you're calling me?  Wow...that's pretty low and really, really degrading, to both you and I.

.

No, that's not degrading to me.  I don't have children.

Interesting that so many militant people call the childfree selfish, yet when asked about why they had children almost universally respond with phrasing that starts, "I wanted......".

If we choose not to have children, that's our business and quite frankly none of yours, and we hardly need your approval about what we do with our reproductive systems.

Considering the horrible job that "parents" are doing collectively raising the most narcissistic generation in history (check the news lately?), none of you have any right to attack our choices.

"You were a child once...". Yes, but we grew up and made our own decisions.  We didn't follow a script that someone else had written for us.  That was a decision borne out of maturity and knowledge of ourselves.

"What if you mother/father had felt that way" is a half-witted comeback that we also hear.  We would not be around to know, now would we?

Do you honestly expect us to simply change our minds and start having children just because you spew garbage like this?  It is rather infantile to think that you even stand a chance.

"However, I want people to admit that the reasons they are doing it are selfish,"

Typical breeder-not-parent, thinking it's all about what YOU want.

"excluding all those who are physically unable to do it or have enough sense to not pass undesirable traits to children.  For you I offer my support and applause, those are mature and hard decisions to make and you should know I respect you for making them."

Hi, I'm Rose.  I took myself out of the gene pool so I wouldn't pass on schizophrenia or potentially inherit my mother's tendency to postpartum mental illness.  Sounds like a pretty good reason, eh?  I STILL get a hard time from folks who like to tell me "well, that might not happen to you."  Can you believe the total insensitivity of some people?

"But for all the able bodied adults out there..."

Now WAIT just a damn minute there, bucko.  I have a potentially debilitating GENETIC LEGACY.  There is NOTHING outwardly wrong with me physically.  I am an ENTIRELY able-bodied woman, who, thanks to a very simple operation, can now live my life as a permanent honeymoon with my husband, free from worries about passing on or suffering from horrible diseases.  

Also, infertility is hardly enough to render most people DISABLED.  Since when is infertility or a bad genetic legacy a handicap?     Your attempt at SUPPORTING a good decision is remarkably ham-handed.

As for your condemnation of those "able-bodied" folks who don't want kids - uh, what makes you think you get a vote as to whether other people reproduce?  Having a child is a HUGE, life-changing event, a total commitment.  Who are you that you can sit up there from On High and pass moral judgments on those who don't feel up to the task?

The craziest thing about all you Cfers is the fact that  you seem to be thinking that any of us parents want you to have children. I am damn glad that none of you are having children. I don't even want a vote in your lives.

But you don't get to come onto this board and complain about all the breeders and sling your mud and cry foul and not expect to take some judgment back.

This is not a moral judgment nor a condemnation, it is devoid of any religious condemnation or political issue. If you take just the facts you people are a walking contradiction. You don't want to be judged, but all you do is judge, other people, other people's kids. But god forbid anyone question your choices, how dare we! I didn't even know this issue existed until this article came up, and now I could still care less.

But don't come out swinging like you got the raw end of the deal and not expect us to dish it right back.

Everyone should read The Lotus's post, it is simple, succinct and kind.

spartic99 I can't imagine you being a very attentive parent what with you spending more time flaming people on boards than taking care of your kids.

"I asked questions to elicit honest answers, not insults to my inteliigence."

You GOT honest answers.  And if you'd learn to spell INTELLIGENCE, and not to stereotype others so much, you'd find yourself enduring a lot fewer insults about your intelligence.

"And if you're "HAPPY," bless the child that is not yours."

Indeed.  And you don't need to put "HAPPY" in quotes.  There can be genuine, real, entirely valid happiness without children.  I know because I experience it every day.

"Lots of posters brought up a good point. Why are CFers even on this site?"

Because Patti Nichols wrote a patronizing, logically flawed, parent-centric, invalidating article about us, accompanied by a rather rude little cartoon?

"If you hate parents and children so much, exercise your right to click elsewhere."

Since when does not having kids = HATING them?  I don't have any pets - does that mean I HATE all animals?  I don't believe in any religion - does that mean I HATE all  religion and religious people?

For someone who HATES children, I've certainly taught a lot of them how to work algebraic equations and written a whole lot of college recommendation letters.  I've also never laid angry hands on any child, anywhere, which is more than I can say for some parents.  I simply have not had kids.  From whence comes the accusation of "hatred"?

"No matter what you do or say, people will continue to have children. Someone has to."

Thank you, Captain Obvious.  Though why you chose to make this justification when no CF person here is advocating genocide of the human race is beyond me.  What, do you think we want the economy to collapse?

"If you choose not to, so what? If I choose to have more, SO WHAT?"

Exactly.  And I think you'll note that no childfree person here has said "You parents should stop having children."  You want my two spots in the replacement rate, have at 'em - I won't even charge ya.  The world must be peopled, and God knows I ain't gonna help.

"Get over yourself, I'll get over myself, and whomever offered to buy the world a coke can add a splash of rum to mine."

I'm gonna hold you to that.  And I'll take a shot of rum in mine too.

"Everyone should read The Lotus's post, it is simple, succinct and kind."

Aside from the fact that s/he made the stereotypical assumption that not having kids = hating them, but besides that, yeah, it was pretty good.

I'm reading all the weak, uneducated attempts by breeders (no, not parents, they actually have interesting things to say) to justify their holier than though attitude.

As I type this my husband and I are laughing ourselves silly listening to Esmerlda the proud 22 year old single mother of 4 screaming brats dragging her cellulite coated hindquarters up the steps. That girl looks like she had been rode hard and strung out wet. Why? Because it is wooooorth it!

If you insist on calling it "selfish" then we damn well own it! I have no trouble admitting I like my education, husband, family, pets, fit body, and free time better than a kid any day!

Thank you, Spartic99. I do what I can.

Francois - please. Speak not to me of stereotypes, I fight them everday. I think it's unfortunate that you and others on this site think that being mean is the best way to get your point across. i just makes your credibility look a little bit like swiss cheese.

Now where's my Coke?

"And one more thing...Moo Cow?  Breeder?  Really?  That's what you're calling me?  Wow...that's pretty low and really, really degrading, to both you and I.

No, that's not degrading to me.  I don't have children."

OK, I guess you need an explanation.  You degrade yourself every time you feel the need to belittle someone for a life decision that they have made.   And then when you actually do it, well that's the ultimate degradation.  

spartic99 I can't imagine you being a very attentive parent what with you spending more time flaming people on boards than taking care of your kids.

I'd like to see what happens if spartic's kids grow up and decide to be childfree. Methinks she/he would disown them.

Spartic99

" If he cries on the bus or in starbucks I will do everything to comfort him I can but it is a fact of life that kids exist and occasionally they put people out. There have always been bad and misbehaved children, "contract with society" be damned. Some people are bad parents, but that is not what is being discussed here. I refuse to have my child punished and limited because you want your quiet time. "

So you don't mind if me and my friends are loud, abit drunk and rowdy in the resaurant next time time you go out with your kid? You promise not to compalin if WE refuse to have ourselves limited when YOU want YOUR quiet time?

Or is refusing to be limited to respect other (paying customers) desire for peace ONLY applicable to you and your kid?

"The only reason that really eats at me are the people who claim they don't want to bring children into this world. I feel like people who are smart enough to recognize that the world is a bad place are more obligated to raise children to help change it."

I don't see how raising kids really does anything to help change the world

- at worst the kid could turn out to be a mass murderer, and at best might come up with some important invention - but the number of felons in prison is FAR greater than the number of geniouses who really DO anything to help the world that far outweighs the resources they have used in just existing.

I don't get the concept of people who have kids (or claim they had them) so their kids can make a difference in the world - why could they have not worked on making a difference themselves?

See, I think people are obligated to help change the world period -

not to have kids in order to fob off the responsibility on them.

After all - your own parents might have felt that way about you, and THEIR parents felt that way about them.

Spartic99:

"There have always been bad and misbehaved children, "contract with society" be damned. Some people are bad parents, but that is not what is being discussed here. I refuse to have my child punished and limited because you want your quiet time. "

And there it is. The real BNP attitude:

Screw you, go pound sand, I got mine because the government says I'm entitled, so pardon my french, but go screw yourselves if you want my incorrigible brats to shut up once in a blue moon. I'll take them wherever I please, whenever I please and you can take a flying leap if you don't like it.

So, "contract be damned", eh? We'll see how you feel about that when the unchilded start peeling back your entitlements. Keep it up and the pendulum *will* swing the other way. You BNPs are going to ruin it for the responsible parents.

A few things,

Number 1, I have a kid, not kids. One, it is hardly over breeding. My husband and I have ONE kid. I guarentee that my child lives a privileged and comfortable life supervised by responsible educated parents. Don't tell me not to make assumptions about you people and then turn around and do exactly the same thing.

And what you CF people don't seem to understand is that drunken behavior that is loud and rowdy is ILLEGAL, as in public drunkenness and disturbing the peace. Additionally it is a choice you make as adults, to bother the people around you. It is a different situation to take a child out that MAY cry because he has gas or is cutting a tooth. It is not a given that they will throw a tantrum or act out so therefore I will take the risk. It is very different from a person  that chooses to  take the risk of drinking too much and getting sloppy and disturbing others.

Additionally, don't think you know anything about my time to take care of my son. I have abundant time to respond to this post because my husband's parents took our son on vacation with them, giving me plenty of time to ream your butts on all your crap.

additionally I think it is time to counter the "Breeder" logo. Child Free is a little too neutral for your group. I suggest we start calling them "the barren". It may not be true, perhaps you could bear children, but we are not breeders either so I dub thee "The Barren"

Spartic99

"additionally I think it is time to counter the "Breeder" logo. Child Free is a little too neutral for your group. I suggest we start calling them "the barren". It may not be true, perhaps you could bear children, but we are not breeders either so I dub thee "The Barren"

We're not calling all parents breeders. Just you. Because it's what your attitude shows. You're a breeder.

HorsePucky

You refer to any parent whose views you don't agree with as breeders. They could be a hundrend times smarted, more educated and even a better human being, but they would still be breeders to you because you want to undermine them.

I don't breed, I choose, whether you want to accept that or not. Even if you accidentally come up pregnant, you still choose. So don't try and pull that whole breeder crap one more time.

So if you are going to be uncivil you should have taste of it yourself.

Your attitude strikes me as barren of sympahty or empahty or reason so therefore,

You are The Barren

Oh please. You are just so full of yourself. I honestly don't care what you call me. Apparently breeder bothers you. Im glad to be barren. And I'll celebrate being barren everyday. You were talking about owning labels. You're a breeder. Own it.

And breeder isn't used for any parent that doesn't agree. Just parents with high and mighty entitlement attitudes like you.

You are A Breeder

And as far as bing uncivilized. That started with you in your first comment. You started right in with the name calling. So if anyone is getting what they dished out it's you.

I have to laugh at these breeders calling the childfree people "selfish."  Did you adopt an older child, or a disabled child?  There are plenty of them up for adoption that need a good home.  Or did it have to be your own DNA?  Self-preservation, that's the height of selfishness right there.

Please,

this our space. This is where parents get together to talk freely about these things and how we feel about it. It didn't get uncivil until you people decided to join the conversation, and just for the record.

Calling someone selfish is hardly on par with calling a child "crotch droppings"

And I will not own Breeder, I am not going to own a label that has such an amorphous definition.

And by barren, I meant devoid. You Renee are devoid of empathy. Most barren people are. All you think about is yourselves and how you are being slighted or inconvenienced. If you had any empathy you would recognize the necessity of public policy in favor of families. And if you were mature you would get over the inequities of society and move on rather than going on and on about all the ways society has been unfair to you. Apparently your entitlement is less high and might than ours.

to quote your fellows

Wahhhhhhh!!!! I need naaaaappppppppp!!!!!!!  

Dear Patti, or childbearing hipster, whichever you prefer,

I bet you feel like you earned your glass of wine and are saying FUCK FUCK FUCK all over the house right now, eh?

See what happens when you slap a selfish label on an entire group of society?

You should practice what you preach. If you don't like labels, don't use them.

Your entire article was a waste of time. Tell your editor, Ada Calhoun, that is SHE who is the lunatic for telling you to pester the childfree. Remember?????

"You Renee are devoid of empathy. Most barren people are. All you think about is yourselves and how you are being slighted"

Yes. I had that problem with Mother Theresa all the time. She was so selfish for not having any children of her own. How dare she use her life to make many dying, starving people comfortable. She truly was a bitter, barren bitch.

From what I've read here, the cf people have been more civil and most (not all) the parents here resort to childish name-calling. So if you're a parent, act like it.....grow up!

"And if you were mature you would get over the inequities of society and move on rather than going on and on about all the ways society has been unfair to you. Apparently your entitlement is less high and might than ours."

Funny, if I were to tell a parent to get over inequalities in society I'd be the devil. But to tell a childfree person to get over inequalities is acceptable. Our society is built aroud equality for all. And most parental perks are are gotten under the banner of equality. Yet when it comes to you getting something extra equality isn't so important.

And like I said before. You stated off with the namecalling. So it was never civil in the first place. Just because someone isn't calling you on your behavior doesn't not make it civilized. It just means know one has confronted you on your uncivilized behavior *yet*.

This entitlement attitude is exactly why you are a breeder and not a parent. Equality is only good when it works for you. I have pleanty of empathy. Just none for people like you.

Because nuns so representative of the child free population.

And let me remind you, she was MOTHER Teresa.

Renee,

You don't have empathy for any parents. It is all about you and your rights.

And the one thing people like you don't face is the fact that parental perks serve public policy. You getting time off really doesn't have that impact. Society is interested in having parents be available to their children so those children will hopefully be more productive adults. Your getting time off to stay with your sick pet hardly has the same impact on the future of the country. Not that you care about the future anyway, you have no vested interest in what happens after you die. So you really shouldn't get so bent out of shape about people getting perks that might do some good for society.

And never call someone with a child not a parent, it is ignorant.

I have empathy for parents. All parents. I know many. I have a lot of them in my family. Some of them are friends I've known since preschool. You're just mad that people like you aren't on the list. Since your not a parent but a breeder.

I do have an interest in the future. I have family and friends that I care about. And I care about their future. You see, *I* care about the future even if it doesn't directly benefit my own gentic offspring. I understand how that might be hard for you to understand. That someone could care about the future for some other resaon than their own kids.

I don't have any pets. But if I did, I'd hope that any one with an ounce of compassion would understand that since they depend on me I need to be able to meet their needs. Be it to take them to the vet or make sure they eat. Only someone like you wouldn't think so.

For the person who wants CF'ers to own up to their selfishness, I give you this:

I AM SO SELFISH!  I volunteer my time with the poor!  I give donations!  I pay my taxes!  I BABYSIT!  Holy dear God in Heaven am I selfish!  I need to change my ways.  I *need* to have a child immediately so I can stop being selfish.  So then I can take off work as often as possible and expect my co-workers to pick up the slack.  Then I can whine to law makers that schools need more money and cause more tax hikes.  Then I can read the dozens of magazines, websites, and watch the tv programs tailored JUST FOR ME!  Then I can *complain* about how hard it is to be a parent and how no one really understands.  Ohhh, then I can have a blog that talks about every single cute and absolutely unique thing my child accomplished that day.  Like blinking!  Totally unique!

Whew, that made me feel better.  What an awesome breakthrough I had right there.  I'm going to go out there and have myself a quiverful right now!  Thanks, lady!

Way to show your ignorance. I am a parent.

the dictionary defines parent as such

par·ent (pâr'ənt, păr'-) pronunciation

n.

  1. One who begets, gives birth to, or nurtures and raises a child; a father or mother.

You don't get to judge who isn't a parent. Even if someone is a crappy parent they are still a parent. You don't get to change the definition just because it is convenient for you

And lets be honest you have no vested interest in the future. You can espouse all the reasons why *you* care. But the truth is you will never have to care about the future, it ends with your death. This is why public policy values parents more than the childless. Unfair, maybe, but necessary.

And I have three dogs and a cat. I love them and care for them. But I am not so cavalier as to equate their well being on the same level as the health and well being of a child. When they need to go to the vet or the groomers I take vacation days or go on my days off, just like the rest of the world. These kind of examples are just ways the barren try and compare themselves to parents. It is not the same, your rights are subordinate because because they don't serve the same purpose as far as society is concerned.  

"And lets be honest you have no vested interest in the future."

Just because you give birth to a child doesn't mean that your child will outlive you or contribute to society in any way.

You don't care about the future. You care about what happens to your kids. There is a difference. I care about what happens to society as a whole. Since I don't have to look out for one or two genetic offspring. You care about what happens to your kids specifically. You want whatever future best benefits your kids. That is not caring about society. So don't get it twisted. You don't have any investment in the future in any way that benefits society as a whole. As shown by your comments here.

In a free and equal society like the US (is supposed to be) no one's right should ever be subordinate to another's. Ever. Too many people have fought long and hard for real equality for you to so easily discount it. You are absolutely ridiculous. And I hope that your opinions are in the miniority because those who think like you are a detriment to society.

As a childfree person my rights are *subordinate* according to you?

Patti, I think you have your answer now. THIS is why we cannot get along. I don't get along well with bigots.

Spartic99 -

Okay - you can call me barren if you wish. I honestly don't care how people label me. All I know is that I am happy with the choices and goals that I have made for myself in life, which now includes not having children. I hope you're happy with your choice to have a child.

I'll point out that there's another  definition for "barren"  - "Lacking appeal, interest or meaning; dull; boring." If you consider that definition, then my life is definitely not barren.

Being CF is a decision that I made with my husband of almost 10 years. We thought we'd have at least one child when we got married, although we wanted a few years as just a couple first.

Five years after our wedding, both of us stiill didn't have a great urge to have a child - we were very happy with our life as it was and felt we weren't missing out on anything. We love being an involved, doting aunt and uncle to our eight nieces and nephews, but we had no desire to take care of a child 24/7. I had seen women my age try to juggle a job and care of a child, and I did not want to go through that stress myself. My quitting work to be a SAHM was not possible - my husband chose to be in a field that is not high paying, and I felt it was only fair for me to continue working and contribute toward my budget. If I had quit working to raise a child, we would have struggled financially (even though we have chosen to live simply in a small house and with older cars), or my poor husband would have had to work two jobs.

In addition, I have some chronic health problems that probably would have made pregnancy difficult for me, even if I continued taking my medication. Care of a helpless infant could also be difficult for me.

My husband and I are both Christians, and realized that many Christians frown on happily married, educated couples who choose to not have children. But we honestly believe that because we have never had the huge desire to have a child, God had made other plans for us. Thankfully, our friends at church understand, and we've never received any scorn for not having children - only love from other church members.

Since we've decided to be CF, we've discovered all the wonderful things that we can do that our siblings and friends who have children cannot do - and not all of these things are selfish for us.

We've been able to devote service to our church that is not possible for those who have to plan everything around their children's needs. I've been able to spend more energy on my work at a university than I would if I was caring for a child, and I like to feel that I'm making a difference in the lives of other peoples' children - the university students I teach.

Most importantly, I've been able to quickly go to my aging parents whenever they've needed me. When my 75-year-old mother was hospitalized last year for emergency surgery, I could be with her much quicker than my sister, who had three small children and had to make arrangements for their care before she could come. My husband and I now realize that the two of us will probably need to care for my parents, and his too, more than our siblings who have children - simply because we have more time to care for them.

We're also available to care for our nieces and nephews whenever we're needed. And, outside of family and our church, we have a full life of running 5k races, traveling, pursuing other hobbies, going out together, etc.

Maybe those things are selfish - but it's also equally selfish for parents to spend all of their time with their children to fill what was missing in their lives (I've actually known women who got pregnant because they hated their careers and wanted to have a child to stay home without being bored) or to have a child "just because it's time," to give their parents grandchildren, or to have someone to care for them in their old age. I'm not saying that all parents have children for these reasons, but some of them do.

PS. As long as you get to judge who is selfish or not. As long as you get to judge who's rights are more important. I can judge who is a parent. And you are not a parent. To call you one is a disgrace to all the decent people out there raising kids.

Just because you give birth to a child doesn't mean that your child will outlive you or contribute to society in any way.

But society has a vested interest in trying to make sure they do.

as far as the

So then I can take off work as often as possible and expect my co-workers to pick up the slack.  Then I can whine to law makers that schools need more money and cause more tax hikes.  Then I can read the dozens of magazines, websites, and watch the tv programs tailored JUST FOR ME!  Then I can *complain* about how hard it is to be a parent and how no one really understands.  Ohhh, then I can have a blog that talks about every single cute and absolutely unique thing my child accomplished that day.  Like blinking!  Totally unique!

Oh my god, why didn't I stay a cute and single girl that never had to think of anyone but herself. Oh how I could have enjoyed those all nighters snorting coke in nightclub bathrooms and then sleeping it off the next day while other people did my work for me and covered for my ass. Oh and darn I can't  make ugly faces at all the children who dared to show their face in public and made noise, OH NO, don't they know that I am the only one who exists in this world, I mean Duh! And oh how badly I feel about not getting to chronicle all my dangerous promiscuous sex and humiliate all the married men I have ever slept with in my blog.

Thanks for the breakthrough. I am going to leave my husband and child right now and go be just like you guys

By that reasoning Renee

I could say that you are not human, because surely no one who is so unfeeling and unreasonable could possibly be a human definition be damned

"Oh how I could have enjoyed those all nighters snorting coke in nightclub bathrooms and then sleeping it off the next day while other people did my work for me and covered for my ass."

I must have missed that part of my youth.  Maybe I blocked that part out of my mind.  Guess I'll have something to confess to my husband tonight!  Or maybe it was you!  Then when your children grow up you can complain to them about how much fun you gave up to have them!  Don't forget to hold the months of pregnancy, hours of labor, and lost hours of sleep over their heads too!

The only one here unfeeling and unreasonable is you.

In fact, I don't even know what you're talking about. Saying everyone should have equal consideration is unfeeling and unreasonable. In what alternate reality?

"But the truth is you will never have to care about the future, it ends with your death."

Right, because none of us have younger siblings, nieces, nephews, great-nieces or nephews, friends, or human connections of any kind.  We're all Rocks, and Islands, because the only way one can feel concern for other human beings is by having children.

"This is why public policy values parents more than the childless."

Bullshit.  Public policy favors parents because parents are the majority at the moment, and they voted parent-friendly public policies in, FULL STOP.  There is no single entity called Public Policy sitting in judgment on the lifestyle choices of various demographics and deciding which one is more valuable.

"These kind of examples are just ways the barren try and compare themselves to parents."

Right, because every CF person has no greater ambition than to be like parents.  If we wanted to be like parents, why the heck aren't we parents ourselves?  And you are aware that the use of the word "barren" as a slam on women was created back in Biblical times, when women had to justify their very existences and the food that they ate by having sons, right?  You ARE aware of how painfully sexist, archaic, and socially backwards that term is...aren't you?

"It is not the same, your rights are subordinate because because they don't serve the same purpose as far as society is concerned."

The rights of NO class of human beings, parents, non-parents, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, etc. are subordinate.  To say so is not only bigoted, it's flatly un-American.  

You do realize the whole notion of "the rights of this one group of people is subordinate to this other group of people" is the same rhetoric they used to use to justify slavery...right?  

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men and women are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

Funny, there ain't a single word in there about how people who've had kids are more equal than everybody else.

You're embarrassing every parent on this board, dear.  If you're representing the group, you're making them sound bigoted.

You ARE aware of how painfully sexist, archaic, and socially backwards that term is...aren't you?

Because calling someone a breeder is soo much less sexist and painful right?

The rights of NO class of human beings, parents, non-parents, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, etc. are subordinate.  To say so is not only bigoted, it's flatly un-American.

Bull,

comparing your non-parent status to the plight of black people is ridiculous. Nowhere in the constitution is it guaranteed that you have the same right to EVERYTHING. People are subordinated everyday in our society. Just look at law breakers, surely you wouldn't put the rights of a rapist on the same level as you as a law abiding citizen (I hope)

Your unalienable rights are not the right to equal time off, did you ever take a civics class?

I would like to extend a thank you to Kristy

Your argument was articulate and reasonable. You justified yourself well and I was impressed with how you got your point across in such a neutral tone considering how heated this conversation has become.

I exempt you from any negative comments that may have come before and I offer my apologies if you were offended. You are exactly the kind of person I would like to see as a figurehead for the childfree movement. I can only hope that you do not begrudge having to pay civil taxes for schools and playgrounds that benefit society or the flexibility that allows mothers to work while caring for their children.

"You justified yourself" Why does anyone need to justify themselves to you?

Allow me to rephrase

I felt her explanation of why she felt the way she felt was excellent. I didn't ask for her explanation, but the one she offered was clear, concise and actually made me pause and consider her opinion.  

You could take a lesson from her  

FACT: You said, "Your rights are subordinate because because they don't serve the same purpose as far as society is concerned."

FACT: NO ONE'S rights are EVER SUBORDINATE IN THIS COUNTRY, regardless of childbearing status.  

"Nowhere in the constitution is it guaranteed that you have the same right to EVERYTHING."

(It's Constitution with a capital C, dear.  Proper noun.)  And the Constitution draws absolutely NO distinctions between the rights of the childed and the rights of the unchilded.  

But since you're such a Constitutional scholar, why don't you find me the passage in that historical document that says it's okay to discriminate against non-parents?  I'll wait.

Plus, an even earlier document called the Declaration of Independence said that YES, I DO have the same right to everything.  "All men and women are created equal."  It does not read "All fathers and mothers are created equal."  It's "all MEN AND WOMEN" (emphasis mine.)

FACT:  Childfree people have the same inalienable rights as any parent.

"People are subordinated everyday in our society."

Which doesn't make it right.  And they don't have to lie down and take it without a fight.  If I find myself in a workplace where I am expected to be subordinate to parents, I can quit, and not allow my labors to be exploited.  I can also vote against expensive social policies that favor only one segment of society.

"Just look at law breakers, surely you wouldn't put the rights of a rapist on the same level as you as a law abiding citizen (I hope)"

Criminals are an entirely different class of people who have removed themselves from the strata of law-abiding citizens through the commission of a crime.  The state of never having had a child is hardly a crime.

Surely you AREN'T equating childfree people with criminals, right?

"You could take a lesson from her"

Why should I have responded to your negativity with positive atatments. You started right in with the name calling in your first comment. Why would you expect people's comments to be sunshine and roses after that.  

It is merely an example, especially since you were so absolutist as to state

The rights of NO class of human beings, parents, non-parents, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, etc. are subordinate.

and then you go and say

Criminals are an entirely different class of people

Which is it? Which FACT are you backing up?

And as much as it might chafe you, and as much as it may be unfair the Constitution is silent as to the mundane aspects of life that serve society. Your rights set out in the Declaration of Independence are not abridged. No one is taking any rights away from you, no one is oppressing you, no one is taking away your rights to free speech, or your gun or searching you without a warrant, or refusing you a jury trial or giving you cruel and unusual punishment etc etc.

Get some perspective about what is really happening to you. You pay some extra taxes and you don't get as much time off.

I am a mom and still get less time off than my boss who has no kids, even though I have a higher degree than he does. But I am not bitter because that is how the system works.

Renee,

The name calling arguments were off the cuff, mere puffery in the beginning. It wasn't until you people decided to chime in and take it to the next level that it really got nasty. I could see your point if we had made these statement directly to you I could see it getting so bad. But we hardly called you out and started the flame war. It isn't as if if was published on the front page of the NYTs and told the world what we thought about you. These boards are no different than a group of friends talking around a water cooler, it wasn't until you butted into a conversation that wasn't meant to be open to you that we pulled out the stops. To be completely honest I wouldn't have said a thing if I knew it would result in this.  

"It is merely an example,"

An incorrect example.

"especially since you were so absolutist as to state

"The rights of NO class of human beings, parents, non-parents, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, etc. are subordinate."

The Founding Fathers said it for me first, in that little document called the Declaration of Independence.  It's not absolutist, dear, it's the guaranteed right of EVERY American.  If I'm absolutist to state that all Americans are equal, then so is the Supreme Court.

"and then you go and say

Criminals are an entirely different class of people"

Because they are.  They've been convicted of a crime and imprisoned.  That means they've forfeited their civil liberties and the right to vote.

"Which is it? Which FACT are you backing up?"

Both, because they're both true.  Neither statement is mutually exclusive.  Criminals are not law-abiding citizens, have therefore forfeited their claim to the same inalienable rights accorded to all law-abiding people of all races and parental status.

(BTW - this is all stuff any high school student should know.  Have you ever taken a civics class?)

"And as much as it might chafe you, and as much as it may be unfair the Constitution is silent as to the mundane aspects of life that serve society."

The Constitution does not grant more rights to parents than it does to non-parents.

"Your rights set out in the Declaration of Independence are not abridged."

FACT: You said, "**YOUR (the childfree) RIGHTS ARE SUBORDINATE** because because they don't serve the same purpose as far as society is concerned."

You're wrong.

"You pay some extra taxes and you don't get as much time off."

I don't pay "extra taxes."  I simply don't get a per-child tax deduction.  There is no "childfree tax", you know - this ain't Romania in the eighties.

That said, I don't begrudge the money I pay toward public schools because I myself am the product of the public school system.  However, the choice is mine as to whether I want to work for a company that has policies that favor the childed.  

The school I work for gives me, a single man, just as much time off as anyone else of my pay level and seniority.  I flatly refuse to work for any school or company that has policies that favor employees based on parental status.  My Master's degree and I don't have to go where we'll be discriminated against.  That's my right.

"I am a mom and still get less time off than my boss who has no kids, even though I have a higher degree than he does."

Then you're letting them take advantage of you.  What's stopping you from trying to get a better job or going into business for yourself if you don't like it?

"But I am not bitter because that is how the system works."

So you're a good little uncomplaining cog in the machine.  Good for you.

"It isn't as if if was published on the front page of the NYTs and told the world what we thought about you."

This is a public forum. It's easy for peple to find this and see the name calling. To use your example. If someone was listening to you and your friends talk trash about them or their lifestyle by the water cooler, they'll probably speak up and say something. And if you've been name calling, they may return the favor.

And like I said in my forst comment:

"Let's just say one of the editors to this site made a biiiig mistake. And basically the rest of you are paying for it. Not your fault but this site gets no sympathy."

Honestly, if it were any other community the blog would have probably gotten made fun of and then ignored. But the editors (very rude) mistake coupled with the name calling chapped some people's asses.

I relish the idea of him helping me through my old age. I own every self indulgent second of it. And I don't apologize for a it.

-----------------------------------------------

This made me think of my friend's mom. She is nearly 70, lives alone, and suffers from painful osteo-arthritis. She has two children in their late thirties. Her daughter (my friend), adores her, but following her husband's work promotion, is due to emigrate with him soon. Her son is a selfish shit who has refused point blank to even visit her in his sister's absence - let alone care for her.

So I'm sorry love, just because you had a child doesn't automatically guarantee you a geriatric nurse in your later years!

Boy, the behavior and comments by some of the parents on this board is really disturbing. Calling people "barren?" That's an effective addition to your arguments. And mature! Let's hope that the bitterness and hatred that these people obviously feel isn't passed on.

Honestly, sometimes the behaviour of parents is so pathetic I can't even bring myself to laugh.

"You pay some extra taxes and you don't get as much time off."

So the childfree and infertile should be fined, and have to work more hours than parents do, because they aren't producing workers for the State.  Is that what you're advocating here?

Well.  Spoken like a true totalitarian Ceauşist.

Let me tell you a story about the guy who founded totalitarian Ceauşism.

Once upon a time, there was a man who was the head of the Romanian government.  He made abortion and contraception illegal.  He subjected people who did not have children to humiliating and invasive scrutiny by a special police force and fined them up to twenty percent of their income for failing to produce children for the State.  (You'd have loved it.)

Under his regime, uncontrollable child abandonment and death from back-alley abortions were absolutely RAMPANT.  He was in fact so hated that he was overthrown in a military coue and executed in 1989.

That's what happens when you try to force people to have unwanted kids, and try to criminalize the choice to avoid parenthood.  

This is all recent history.  Ceauşism was a catastrophic failure, resulting in the deaths of thousands of women and children and irrevocable emotional damage to thousands of children.  I don't want that to happen here.  Do you?

I too refuse to work for any employer who has parent-centric policies.  Plus, any employer who tries to tell me that my workplace rights are SUBORDINATE because I don't have kids is getting slapped with a great big discrimination lawsuit.

This topic has become so ridiculous it simply cannot be continued.

A few things to leave you with.

Don't call people breeders and expect them not to get mad. It is hurtful and mean spirited. Hopefully you would like to avoid similar monikers being childless, we all learned this grade school, name calling is bad.

About all the generalizations, My opinions represent only my opinions and not that of

babble or any other parent on this list. I am sure this relieves many of you. I am similarly relived by the sensitive and calm comments made by Kristi and select other on this post. I think one of the worst aspects on both sides is the generalizations made about each other. Not all parents think childless people should be made into soylent green and I willing to bet most child free people are not bitter, child hating people.

I would only ask the child free to try and look at it from the other prospective and see the benefit society gets by promoting family friendly policies. Perhaps it will ease the sting a bit.

Lastly this flame has emphasized the need for more civility between our two groups. I don't  believe in calling people barren, rather it was only to emphasize a point. I personally pledge to refrain from similar name calling in all conversations on this topic in the future, and I suggest you do the same

So, as soon as you lose an argument it magically becomes ridiculous and cannot be continued ?

And as for "Don't call people breeders and expect them not to get mad. It is hurtful and mean spirited" - how about "don't call people selfish and expect them not to get mad. It is hurtful and mean spirited".

Sorry Spartic99 - you're trying to backpedal now, but it's absolutely useless. You've shown us all what kind of person you are. You're truely one of the worst breeders I've ever encountered. With your entitlement mentality, your obvious contempt for CFers, your jealousy of our lifestyle you fit the bill perfectly.

Sorry Spartic99 - you're trying to backpedal now, but it's absolutely useless. You've shown us all what kind of person you are.

A self righteous, arrogant, self absorbed breeder who is most likely the so called handler of the screaming "indigo child" at the table next to you at the 4 star restaurant. You make all parents (REAL PARENTS) sick.

I can't believe nobody else picked up on this little gem:

"And I have three dogs and a cat. I love them and care for them. But I am not so cavalier as to equate their well being on the same level as the health and well being of a child. When they need to go to the vet or the groomers I take vacation days or go on my days off, just like the rest of the world."

So if your animals get sick on a workday, you would let them suffer or DIE instead of missing work to take them to the vet?

I have missed a total of two workdays in my 20+ years or working, due to medical emergencies for my pets.  In both cases my employer was compassionate and understanding about it.  

It could have easily gone the other way, and I realize that.  But you know what, if my animals need to go to the vet THEY ARE GOING.  They are living things that need care just like humans.  And their illnesses do not always fall on "vacation days or days off" either, anymore than a child's illnesses do.

Please do the world a favor and don't get anymore pets.  

I'm not sure why some people who have children think that people who don't have children are selfish.  That makes no sense to me at all.

I wish everyone could get along and respect one another.  If I decide not to have kids, great, and if you decide to, great.  Let's respect each other.  Please.

If I decide not to have kids, great, and if you decide to, great.  

Once people figure out there is nothing wrong with not wanting/caring for children I think more balance can be had. I personally have no problem with kids. I just don't want any of my own, nor do I want to pay for or be subjected to the bad behavior someone elses.

For me, it's not acceptance. It's adherence to a contract that says "I'll pay far more than my share in the name of your kids, as long as you agree to rear them to respect others and to give priority to the comfort of others over your child's willful impulses".

In other words, keep them quiet and raise decent, respectful kids, not the semi-literate cretins that now pass for adolescents.

I don't care one whit about the acceptance pf parents. I just want them to corral their offspring and do a decent job of teaching them how to function in a post-collegiate world. If they can't or won't do that, I want my money back.

I just want them to corral their offspring and do a decent job of teaching them how to function in a post-collegiate world.

That is to haaaard. It actually means owning to the responsibilites of a paaaarent!

One would assume this is not asking much, yet with the increasing number of spineless, whiny, STUPID, overindulged, overweight kids running around it makes one wonder.

"Francois - please. Speak not to me of stereotypes, I fight them everday."

As do I, my dear.  Especially since intellectual perfectionism is extremely unfashionable in this day and age.  ESPECIALLY when one is a male, fortysomething, divorced math teacher.

"I think it's unfortunate that you and others on this site think that being mean is the best way to get your point across. i just makes your credibility look a little bit like swiss cheese."

That's just the thing, my dear.  I'm not TRYING to be mean, just precise.   Perhaps I'm a little defensive, but being told that my rights "are subordinate" to anyone else's hurts my feelings.  

I refuse to be anyone's doormat.  I have two sisters, three nieces and a nephew whom I love dearly.  Those little girls and boy will inherit all of Uncle's assets when he goes to to Valhalla.  They will also enjoy their uncle's support in all of their academic endeavors.

"Now where's my Coke?"

Right here.  And here's a nice swig of Bacardi Dark to go with.

Did I mention that my niece just got into the engineering dept. at Cal Poly?  Smart girl, that one.  Again, I love her and support her in everything she undertakes, even if she isn't my own flesh and blood.

I'm trying to find the comment where one CFer chides parents for not doing that great a job of raising their kids since this generation is the most narcissistic and self absorbed with an exaggerated sense of entitlement.

Well what do you expect? They were raised by the second most narcissistic, self-absorbed generation ever. As proven repeatedly by the breeders on this board.

You know, some Childfree people CAN"T HAVE CHILDREN!  We are not being selfish, we just can't medically have them!  We aren't rich like Angelina Jolie so we are not going to adopt.  And frankly, I have no parenting gene, I would be terrible.

So, how dare you call me selfish and evil!  I'm not being a martyr, it's a way of life and I've known since birth.  So, being childfree is what I am, it's not a movement, or a freaky side I chose.

I don't critize people who can have kids or love my nieces  or my godchild less because they won't have cousins from me.   So, stop lumping us in a group!  Have your kids, and enjoy!  I won't and I will enjoy!  

spartic99,

I think in order for us all to get along and be a little more understanding you will first need to learn the difference between childFREE and childLESS.  They are quite different.  Obviously you using the word "barren" and intertwining the words childfree and childless together will not help your cause.

I can also tell you that you wouldn't have the guts to say half of the things you said on this post while standing around a watercooler.  It's much easier to be a hateful self-absorbed person on the internet rather than face to face.

Patti,

Could you please define for the benefit of everyone here who may not know, just what exactly is a "new urban parent". I'd really appreciate a consise explanation of that label.

For the people so upset at the use of the word BREEDER, it should be noted that BABBLE has a column that is named NOTES FROM A NON-BREEDER so before you start yelling at the CF, you should read your own board.

And for all of the parents spending so much time screaming at the CF who were essentially invited to comment on this piece since the word CHILDFREE is in the title, don't you have children to look after?  Where are your kids while you're online screaming at us, hmm???

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along? [link]

I can't believe nobody else picked up on this little gem:

"And I have three dogs and a cat. I love them and care for them. But I am not so cavalier as to equate their well being on the same level as the health and well being of a child. When they need to go to the vet or the groomers I take vacation days or go on my days off, just like the rest of the world."

So if your animals get sick on a workday, you would let them suffer or DIE instead of missing work to take them to the vet?

I have missed a total of two workdays in my 20+ years or working, due to medical emergencies for my pets.  In both cases my employer was compassionate and understanding about it.  

It could have easily gone the other way, and I realize that.  But you know what, if my animals need to go to the vet THEY ARE GOING.  They are living things that need care just like humans.  And their illnesses do not always fall on "vacation days or days off" either, anymore than a child's illnesses do.

Please do the world a favor and don't get anymore pets.  

Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:43 PM by Shari

MAYBE HER PETS ARE HEALTHY?!  BUT YOU NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT.  WAY TO JUDGE.

Patti,

I'm still waiting on that "new urban parent" definition.

Since it is likely going to be a loooong wait for an answer, I did a little research.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/oh/story/opinions/columns/2007/02/20/ddn022007lifedl.html

Here's a snippet:

""I wasn't really reluctant for the responsibility, the diapers or the sort of day-to-day workings of a parent," the 36-year-old Pollack said in an online interview. "What I didn't want to give up was the sort of cultural trappings of my life before having a kid — the music, the movies, the video games, the pop-culture that I'd been immersed in since I was a kid."

Apparently, he is not alone in wondering if taking an occasional break from his PlayStation 3 is way too high a price to pay for being a dad. New York magazine ran a cover story about "hipster dads, " defined in a recent USA Today article as "the guy who hasn't worn a suit since his wedding and listens to the same music as the college kid who babysits his tots." It envisioned hipster dads — and their hipster heirs — wearing matching Black Sabbath T-shirts. And an online magazine called Babble is aimed at "the new urban parent."

"There is a new generation of parents who are interested in taking their existing lifestyle, sense of self and priorities into parenting, as opposed to checking them at the parenthood door," says Julia Beck, the founder of a "consultancy" that serves expectant and new parents."

---end quote

This article highlights just how selfish the "new urban parent" really is. They don't want to change their lifestyle, rather, they want to incorporate their child into that existing lifestyle, even if it means inconveniencing everyone else.

That mindset is the pinnacle of selfishness.

Hi, Curious.

I'll be happy to address anything specific to my original piece or to any other comments I've made in this discussion. Any other approach would only further the unhealthier aspects of this dialogue.

Thanks.

"MAYBE HER PETS ARE HEALTHY?!  BUT YOU NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT.  WAY TO JUDGE."

First of all, no need to shout.  If you read her post, she clearly stated that she does NOT put her pets' health on the same level as her kids.     And if her pets NEED to go to the vet, she would only take them on her day off or vacation day.

So my question to her is, what if her pets get sick on a workday?  What then?  Do the poor things suffer and die?

Obviously her pets ARE healthy, because she clearly doesn't realize that pets don't get sick on a schedule, anymore than a child does.

So he wants the benefits of a CF life with a kid or two. He feels he needs to choose one over another but is trying desperately to reconcile both.

What a ringing endorsement of parenting!

Thank goodness, I don't have to face that dilemma.  

"I wasn't really reluctant for the responsibility, the diapers or the sort of day-to-day workings of a parent," the 36-year-old Pollack said in an online interview. "What I didn't want to give up was the sort of cultural trappings of my life before having a kid — the music, the movies, the video games, the pop-culture that I'd been immersed in since I was a kid."

Apparently, he is not alone in wondering if taking an occasional break from his PlayStation 3 is way too high a price to pay for being a dad. New York magazine ran a cover story about "hipster dads, " defined in a recent USA Today article as "the guy who hasn't worn a suit since his wedding and listens to the same music as the college kid who babysits his tots." It envisioned hipster dads — and their hipster heirs — wearing matching Black Sabbath T-shirts. And an online magazine called Babble is aimed at "the new urban parent."

"There is a new generation of parents who are interested in taking their existing lifestyle, sense of self and priorities into parenting, as opposed to checking them at the parenthood door," says Julia Beck, the founder of a "consultancy" that serves expectant and new parents."

How can I say what I'm about to say delicately? Hmm. Let's just say I've entered a fair number of vaginal canals as a straight CF male. I think I speak for most CFers in that they've had the same experience.

If anything, the words over the uterus should say "do not exit" if it refers to CF people. But of course you guys probably equate sex with pregnancy and think that the only purpose of sex is to breed.

So how does the graphic really apply breeders? We all know about the frequency of breeder sex. Let's just say that "do no enter" is more reflective of them.

The graphic originated from a childfree person's blog, as credited above.

Patti,

Since you write (and I use the term "write" very loosely here) FOR babble.com, I think my question is absolutely germaine. But I think my answer hits a little too close to the truth. Maybe that's why you didn't want to answer it in the first place.

The uterus graphic joke is the sort of thing that would indeed be funny on a *CF* board or blog.

It's rude when it turns up on a parenting blog, especially alongside a lot of "The lady doth protest too much" assertions that she's SOOOO okay with childfreedom.

Kind of like it's okay for black guys to call each other "niggah," but not okay for anybody else.

Actually - *technically* you DON'T enter the uterus in sex (I don't THINK - its not really in my experience) unless something REALLY weird is going on - so (I think) the only thing entering the uterus is gonna be sperm or eggs and either one is something to beavoided ifg you are CF.

I don't GET the 'selfish argument being leveled at CFers.

People may say 'well we never denied that as parents we are slefish/sel-interested too', BUT you didn't SAY that either. You just started off with that whole 'CFers are selfishv -look at all the trivial things they prefer to having kids' thing.

In my experience, when people start an argument with "you're SELFISH", they very rarely mean "you're selfish, I'm selfish, everyone is selfish" unless they overtly say that in the first place. Therefore, even if you do not mean it that way, It normally comes across as an insult.

I simply do not understand the negative judgemtn of someone preferring doing the things that make them happy over doing somehting htey don't want to do anyway.

Just because one person gets a lot of pleasure from being a parent and feel called to that, does not mean that they have the right to judge someone else who gets a huge amount of pleasure from fishing or from computer games and feels a call to that. Different people's realities are simply different.

And I really don't get why people call it selfish for someone to prefer the so-called 'trivial' things to having a child. So what if someone doesn't have a kid because it is not worth it to them to spend the time, energy, career, sleep, free time, money etc on a child.

It is not worth it to ME to spend any of those things on going into medical school to become a doctor, or into a religious order to become a nun, or in being a horse rancher in Nevada or a lawyer in New York.

But no-one calls me 'selfish' for making THOSE decisions on those basi. If I do not have an interest in having children why should that decision be any different because it is somehting someone ELSE feels to be the most important thing they did in THEIR life. I am not judging THAT - becauue I realize that nearly everyone is different in any way.

When it comes to the name calling - I DO think that their are SEVERAL people who need to tone it down a notch (or more) and lay off the hair trigger. And frankly I do NOT appreciate 'push-button terminology' and insults in a debate thread like this.

But I think that it needs to be acknowleged that terms like 'freaks' and 'selfish' were being used far before anyone used 'breeder' etc.

And frankly, I don't really understand the 'well we used those terms but then you came and insulted us back and that's worse' argument I saw earlier. An insult is an insult.

I would really like to see a moratorium on ANY name calling from EITHER side. It really bothers me to see it, because when it is used in a debate like this it almost always completely obscures the good point (if any) the writer was making OR seems to have been used as a knee jerk response in place of making a good point and prevents the 'opponent' from considering the argument on its own merits and spurs THEM to a nastry knee jerk response, making a nasty fight out of a decent debate.

Any parent who is genuinely interested in getting along with the childfree need only scroll up to Rose's twelve suggestions.  She's laid it all out for you on a silver platter.  

I'd only add one thing to her list:

13) When you find yourself having a hard time controlling your "visceral reaction to a group of people who are speaking out against what I have done (having kids) " - realize that you are PROJECTING your own anxieties onto people who do not deserve your hostility.  None of the CF are "speaking out against having kids."  They're speaking out against BAD PARENTING - there is a difference.

What you are experiencing when you decide that the CF hate the entire reproductive process and all children everywhere, based on no more than their choice not to have kids, and have that "visceral reaction," it's called a PREJUDICE.  

Let's do a simple logical proof here:  "X woman has no children and doesn't want them HERSELF.  That means that she HATES all children and all parents, and wants them all to die."

That is a non sequitur.  There is nothing in the first condition that necessarily agrees with the second.

Let's try another:

"A large group of childfree people like to get together and talk about issues relevant to themselves.  That means they are speaking out AGAINST the bearing and rearing of children, and want the human race to die out."

Again - non sequitur.

The existence of CF people is no more threatening to parents than happy gay couples are threatening to married heterosexuals.  The existence of that which is DIFFERENT is not a THREAT.  You MUST make that distinction and get past that prejudice if you want both parents and the childfree to "get along" according to your stated wishes, Ms. Nichols.  You need only scroll up if you need proof of the animosity that prejudice brings.

There is more than enough world for all of us.  You, as a parent, actually have MORE of a responsibility to get past your own inherent, visceral prejudices against people different from yourself, lest you teach them to your children and increase the sum total of pain and hatred in the world.

Also, I don't know a single CF person (including myself) who HATES good parents.  I don't know a single CF person who (seriously) wants the whole human race to die out.  Fact is, good parenting and well-brought-up kids shine like a beacon in this haphazard, self-indulgent world.  When I run into a genuinely GOOD kid, it warms the cockles of even my curmudgeonly heart.

I like children quite well.  I've been told numerous times how good I am with children.  I just don't want children of my own.  I don't want them living with me.  I want to do other things besides have children.  That doesn't make me a freak.  I don't even think it makes me selfish.  

Parents who think all childfree people hate kids and are selfish should think of it this way:  Do you really want someone having a child who doesn't want that child?  All children deserve to be wanted.  

Oh, and the human race is in no danger of dying out anytime soon.  Besides, childfree people have to balance out people who have up numerous children (like the Duggars in Arkansas--she's pregnant with her 17th).  

Look, Ms. Nichols, we aren't going to get along so long as BNPs insist on calling us "freaks" and "you people", insist that our rights are subordinate to theirs, and have "visceral reactions" of hatred to our very existences just because we've decided not to have kids.  Just so you know.

And please - "barren"?  We co-opted that term back in the nineties.  "Cheers from the always barren and never bitter" and "That's MIZ Barren Old Hag to YOU" are just two of the many ASC sig. lines I can recall right off the top of my head.

Just a quick response to everyone who said this is a blog for parents so we should go away...

You're talking about us. That's why we're here. I see parents leave comments all the time on CF blogs. I welcome them on my own CF blog because I'm talking about parents.

If you don't want us here, don't talk about us, and we'll have nothing to say here.

It finally looks like there are some decent arguments for the CF going on here thanks to Blue Mondays and electric_bonzai. Both (in my opinion) are great representatives of the childfree community, well-spoken, and make good points. Thank you for finally steering the debate in a positive and reasonable direction.

As a mom of two who strives every day to raise respectable, well-behaved, happy boys I can actually take good advice from the points made by you. Up until now I have had a negative stereotype of CF folks - I guess because I assumed all the mean spirited name-calling was targeted at all parents no matter what - but I see the distinction now.

My concern in the possibility of finding common ground (what I think the author sincerely intended, no matter how badly executed) is the education of both arguments to both sides. Because all the CF experience I had witnessed revolved around hateful name-calling and generalities, it never occured to me that most CF are simply anti-bad parenting (breeders) and pro-good parenting. Most of that can be blamed on media and bad press.

One thing is certain - if we could channel all the energy from the badly behaved CFers AND parents on the thread into something positive, say world peace and understanding and all that granola stuff, it would be a truly powerful thing!

FINALLY!

AnotherMommy gets it!  I quietly read through all the flaming (bad on both sides) and am SO relieved someone on the parents' side gets a portion of the frustration.

Yes, hubbers (married 20+ years, living together going on 30) and I decided at the beginning we didn't want children.  That doesn't make us selfish.  It makes us smart.  (believe me, it was very difficult as I reached the mid-30s and our "friends" with budding families (not to mention parents) made us feel very uncomfortable about our decision.

Yes, YES, YES, AnotherMommy!  The CFers are not saying those ugly comments about good parents (unfortunately the bad egg always stands out), but those parents who are inconsiderate of others.  

Example - I was in the grocery store this weekend and a family with one of those huge "minivan" carts kept getting to the isle ahead, parking that beast in the middle and blocking traffice.  First time, "excuse me" nicely.  Second time (next row), "excuse me" not so nice (how is this row different than the last)...well, you the get pic.  As we both happened to leave the store, the older boy was yelling at his father with pure hate in his eyes, hitting him violently, "I WANT ANOTHER BUDDY-BUCK!!!"  This is classic of what CFers are referring to as "breeders".  It's just a pity that this family stood out in my mind, because the store was filled with nice, considerate families who were attentive to where their children/carts were and understood that others also wanted to shop quickly and efficiently.

Thank you, AnotherMom, for speaking out.

P.S. - I love suburban termoil and read it regularly...so there you have it.  I'm still not having children though.

(forgive the typos, I was rushing)

We'd all get along if there weren't posts about how we don't get along to fan the flames.  I know Patti didn't intend for such an angry response from both sides, but wow!  

CFers don't want to/feel they shouldn't have kids, so what?  "Breeders"/Parents have kids whether they wanted them or not (and some breeders don't act like they wanted them), so what?  

This is yet another us vs. them discussion.  The # of "Those people" and "you people" is appalling.  Talk about a segregation.  

Let's be honest CFers get more sh-- than parents in society.  "Why don't you want kids" "You should have kids"  It's not anyone's place to tell people what they should or should not do or, even worse, tell them what they should want.

There should be equality in the workplace, in society for all people.  We don't need everyone to have kids.  We don't need to have 10 kids each to make a living anymore.  We just need to be accepting of everyone, regardless of race, wealth or creed.  

As a parenting site, Babble should be promoting acceptance of all (in general, I think it does).  This is a public site, parents, kids, dogs and cfers can read it if they want to.  If you don't agree with someone, there are non-judgemental, non-inflammatory ways of addressing it.  Some people were down right bitchy on both sides.  Anger doesn't help bring anyone together and certainly not going to help us get along.  

I'm not really on one "side" or the other. I have been married 3 years and do not have children, lean against having them, but am not sure. I think it would be handy if we all took a deep breath and remembered that this issue isn't this polarizing in real life. The internet exaggerates everything. At least, I would hope no one is calling someone a breeder or selfish little sh!t in person. Are there people out there who think I'm a less valuable member of society because I have not reproduced? Apparently at least one. But I'm very grateful for those who keep it to themselves. Honestly, I don't care what other people think. But I've been very lucky. People I come across are very understanding and my husband's company has let him leave work early when we had cat emergencies. It is a little annoying that moms get 5mos paid, money everyone at the company gets ripped out of their paycheck, but only the moms ever get back. BUT, allowing my husband time off for the cat (which was more for me because I was freaking out), to take care of elderly parents if necessary, evens things out. I think what childfree persons want is not preferential treatment, but equal treatment. They want their ailing parents to be as important as your sick child. And given that many parents seem to think that their children will be taking care of them in their old age, I would think this would be a universal concern. How do you expect your kids to do it when their employers are telling them what the childfree are told today-- parents don't matter, just kids?

I suppose logic is a fleeting concept. I do have one burning question though. Why is it always our KIDS who are going to make the world a better place, figure out how to solve the population crisis (extra points if you figure out the irony to this one), cure cancer? Why aren't WE doing something about it? And how do you expect your kids to solve all the world's problems when chances are they'll just be passing the buck to THEIR kids? I think we'd be wise to one day stop romanticizing the so far unproven amazing powers of the next generation, sit down, and do something ourselves.

For those of you who are carping on about the CF not "doing their share" to support the economic system: It is immoral to bring a soul, a sacred human life, into the world for the purpose of supporting an economic system. That's called slavery, and it's wrong. I don't owe society a future consumer/taxpayer just because my uterus functions. Human beings are more than unthinking functionaries of capitalism, and if that's why you're having kids, then you have no regard for human life.