Strollerderby

I've never been in the situation when I've seen a parent do more than give a child a light swat on the bottom, but I'd like to think I would speak up if I saw something more -- one never knows, though.

But I think it can be very helpful for a stranger to gently make a comment.  It takes the caregiver out of the moment and usually results in them calming down.  I know that I've been at my wits end with my kids in public places and while I don't spank, people could see that I was reaching a bad place because I might start shaking or perhaps looked like I was about to cry.  The one or two times a person has commented even something like, "I remember those days, they don't last forever," really helped take me out of the moment and gave me a second to breath.

To those strangers:  Thanks!

The worst I've ever seen in public was a pretty solid spanking delivered by a dad to his kid in a store.  Had I walked in upon the scene I would have been upset.  However I had been in the store for a while and knew that the little boy (maybe 4 or 5) had been hiding behind some large items on the bottom shelf in one of the aisles of the hardware store.  The dad and store employees were all starting to freak out as they were frantically searching for him.  I think the dad was seriously scared by the time the little one poked his head out and the spanking was driven by fear and adrenalin.

When I was about 16 or 17 years old, I was at a movie theater. I saw a very frustrated father pulling his son toward the theater while the son tried to turn around and beg for a popcorn.  The dad got angry and sort of push his son away from  himself, then grabbed his arm and pull back hard.  The noise of hearing that little boy's shoulder pop out of socket still disturbs me, ten years later.  I still wonder to myself if I so anyone else who what watching the scene, could have said or done something to have stopped it.

I once encountered a woman about to lose it with her toddler in Target. I had my two toddlers with me at the time and they were actually calm that day.  I caught the ladys' eye as she took a breath and told her I knew how she felt.  She then confessed that she was losing her mind ,that she felt like a failure since she was a trained teacher.  I told her toddlers test almost everyone and it was normal for her daughter to touch everything, to not listen since they cant hear you when they are busy anyway, that all kids act like hers.  She started to cry a bit.  I felt just awful.  I told her we all feel inadequate as first time moms and gave her the name of a couple of books that helped me understand the psyche of my two toddlers.  She hugged me and we parted ways.  Then my girls acted like maniacs all the way home!

Cassie - what were the titles of those books?  

i think that if you see a stranger publicly hitting their child (or any other form of abuse), if you do choose to approach them, i see there being two possible outcomes...either the parent knows what they're doing is wrong and is just at wits end, so after talking in a non-judgmental, open, understanding way, they find comfort and peace is restored

....or else the parent is fully aware of what they're doing and thinks that it's ok to abuse their child.  they are not simply a frustrated parent, but a person who thinks it's ok to abuse children.  in this scenario, the parent will definitely not appreciate your comment, and either tell you to mind your own business and continue doing what they're doing...or politely apologize and leave, and very likely, take your comment out on the child.  the public embarrassment will be blamed on the poor kid, who will likely be beat twice as hard when they return home.

I am surprised that you were reluctant to speak to the police about this. If it had been an adult man hitting an adult woman, would you reaction be to walk away? Or would you have called 911? I actually think having someone in authority question someone can be really effective; instead, you gave this mother the impression that she-and her actions-are invisible. And you gave her child the same message.

Great topic, Hannah.  I think your mom's story is right on.. most people these days know it's wrong to hit their kids... so when they do it, they would probably respond better to understanding adn empathy than to judgment.

I was commuting home one day a few years ago when a family (mom, bunch of kids) got on the subway. They were all standing on the crowded train and the youngest, who was maybe 3, was getting a little rambunctious in a totally understandable way. The mom spoke sharply a few times, then when the kid kept horsing around, she kicked him in the stomach.

I'm ashamed to say that every single person in that subway car--including me--just acted like it wasn't happening.

Rachael Brownell (Redsy) said:

Great topic, Hannah.  I think your mom's story is right on.. most people these days know it's wrong to hit their kids... so when they do it, they would probably respond better to understanding adn empathy than to judgment.

i'm not so sure that "most people these days know it's wrong to hit their kids." while i definitely don't condone abusing a child, i see nothing wrong with spanking your child. kicking a child in the stomach or yanking them so hard that their shoulder pops, i feel is wrong, but poppin' a child's butt when they're out of line - i say go for it. a lot of children these days are off the hook (have you ever seen how disrespectful those teens are to their parents on "sweet 16"?? ugh!! drives me nuts!!) and i think it's because a lot of parents out there are thinking that talking to little bobby or susie in a nice, quiet voice is going to change his behavior. yeah, right. it might work for some children, but not all. so i say, whip his a$$... that'll straighten him up.

just me can't be for real ... I refuse to believe people are this stupid.

I don't agree with spanking, not that I never have spanked, I just know it teaches children nothing and is just a venting source for parents. It has no other purpose other then to vent your anger and put fear in your children. I came from a home of spanking as did DH. Neither of us grew up to be respectful teens, if anything we had and still have large of amounts of anger towards our parents. I remember every spank I ever got. So if you want to develop resentment in your child keep using spanking as a tool.

I do think parents today feel so alone with the frustrations of parenting. We all judge eachother and judge eachothers children. I think maybe we should start communicating with one another and helping eachother. Although there are some parents that no amount of help can help. They are plain abusive and should not have kids. But for the ones having a bad day and are ready to cry because there child has been so disobedient maybe we should offer words of encouragment rather then words of judgement.

I never had much trouble with my son until 3 3/4 then man, stand back and watch him explode. I often feel alone with the struggle. Wondering what makes him have a tantrum at such small things. Was it me, was I to hard on him to soft on him...then I realized it wasn't so much me as just a phase of independence he was working thru and I had to take it a day at a time and not worry about his anger but more I have to learn to control mine so I can teach him by example. Spanking just teaches us to hit when we are angry....so good luck with that.

Our days are so much more busy then even 20 years ago. Going to stores, daycare, driving around on hot days. Taking long vacations. ALways moving about doing something. Gone are the days when the only trip was to church on sunday and the grocery store on Sat. We constantly expect our kids to keep pace with us and smile while doing it.

Repect your children and they will respect you. HAve empathy for their tired legs and and hot necks. When they cry because they don't want to leave the park maybe you could hang out 10 more minutes and remember the days when the park was your favorite place to be. We should stop worrying about cleaning up toys and messes and stop trying to train our toddlers and preschool to be subservant well behaved drones. I love my kids most when they are happy and carefree. There is plenty of time for them to grow up later on. I just hope I can practice what I preach and stop worrying about forcing my kids to be perfect. I find that the word perfect has become a curse in our house...my son uses it when frustrated about something he cries that "it isn't perfect". Now I have to undo this image of perfection we have put into his head and teach him, there is no such thing as perfect. SIgh~ parenting is not easy but neither is being a child.

Mom of a  2 and 4 year old and one on the way.

Having been struck many times in public, from childhood through my teenage years, I always wondered (and still do) why no one intervened and "rescued" me.  I'm talking a 6', 280lb man in a K-mart aisle towering over a small child, striking them, while people skittered away, glancing back aghast.

I spank my child but fully understand the difference between correcting and teaching (which is why I spank), and lashing out in anger.

Too many parents unfortunately take their negative emotions out on kids (including teenagers).  I agree that there is a fine line to walk when deciding whether or not to get involved, cuz it will be worse for the kid when they get home, sometimes.

I was at the airport last week, and a tired mother and grandparents were dealing with 4 and 2yo boys waiting for a flight overseas. Translate: they had a good 9 hours or more yet to go, probably 12.

I got up and found a napkin and packets of sugar, and set up a sugar-drawing scenario, got the boys attention by winking, and got them absorbed in a new activity. I talked to the mom and modeled the Art of Preschooler Distraction.  I am by no means an expert or perfect parent, but yes-- it does pay to find creative ways to reach out to people and stop the escalating frustration.

I agree, JustMe.

My daughter, one spanking... and she's 10.

My son?  *lol*  Golly, he's a firecracker and ever since we started spanking him, his behaviour has greatly improved.  He's still fun, happy, and loving, but also has learned that boundaries are there for a reason, and a lot of times for his safety, and they aren't meant to be crossed.  Now, we rarely need to spank him because he's learned that a firm look means there will be no more warnings.  He's 5.

I'm so proud to be a mama to such wonderful kids!

I too have a similar story to this.... less dramatic but trying nonetheless.

Young dude in a Walgreens with a three year old girl- braids, dolly, 7:30 or 8:00 at night (read: trouble time for most kids) and anxious energy.  She's a mess, swinging around, asking for stuff etc.  He's trying to maintain his badness, his street cred or something.  He's kind of strutting and all the while threatening his daughter- that he'll hit her if she does this one more time.  He finally grabs her roughly.  

At this point, I did what the abuse counselors across the hall from my work taught me to do: I started complimenting his child.  I told him how beautiful she was and shared a bit about my child- hopefully asleep with g'ma.  He calmed down, pulled her into his arms and seemed to feel pride in her.  I was stunned by the change in atmosphere.  I wholeheartedly endorse this sort of intervention.  It worked in this case!

I recently learned from a friend that in Sweden, striking children is illegal.  And if anyone does so in public, people intervene, including calling the police if necessary.  That seems quite civilized to me.

Any self-aware person who has raised children surely would hesitant to ever insist on one-size-fits-all solutions, but I admit to not being able to understand how some people think spanking is necessary.  My experience was that children are desperately eager to please their parents, even when they have lost control of themselves.  Creative use of their desire to please usually worked for me.  But sometimes children or adults alike are just trouble to be around--none of us deserves to be hit for that.

lolabird- thanks for that bit of advice, its new to me and i'm sure effective.  the DH was well-abused as a kid- hit with belts, etc.  i was spanked probably 5-6 times- i certainly don't remember "every hit". i know that things are different now, but even then there was a clear line between child abuse and discipline.  when i was pregnant with my son DH and i often discussed (loudly) spanking- he was for and i was against.  well, i now have a VERY rambunctious 2 3/4 toddler and i have stooped to a (one) pop on his diaper and pants covered butt.  it seems to get his attention.  i am ashamed to admit that this has happened only in public, when there is no easy timeout place and when other adults are looking at me with that "jeez, can't you do something about your kid" look.  i shouldn't care about that but in the heat of the moment, i do.  well, i was forced to re-evaluate this method last week when he hit another little boy over the head.  i just couldn't spank him while trying to teach him that hitting is wrong, you know?  i'm sure i'll make plenty of mistakes as a mom...all i know is that i love that kid with all my heart and that i want him to grow up to be a good person.  mmm, thanks for letting me ramble.

Well as an abused child I can tell you this is a horrible idea. Yeah, some good parents don't believe in hitting but do it as a last resort, both my and my husband have found ourselves in that position (like when my daughter ran away from me in a busy amusement park, I didn't even think before swatting her on the butt) but many parents believe in spanking. For parents who are abusive another parent telling them better ways of discipline is adding fuel to the fire. I was blamed, hit and punished for other people telling my mom not to hit me in public, grounded for other people calling CPS and the physical abuse continued. Unless you know you can get the child out of the situation or you know your words will have an impact, I think saying something is walking on shaky ground.

I saw an awful scene in a park one day where a young father was shouting--really, snarling, ranting, and raving--at his small daughter.  He was so scary that he frightened the ADULTS in the park.  I can't imagine what it was like to be this girl and where she is today.  I didn't have the courage to intervene--I was there with my own young children--but I wish I had, because someone clearly needed to stop him.

the thing that's helped me feel like I could step up and say something when I was scared of how an adult was treating a child in public is rehearsal.  Just like we're doing here, thinking through what I could say, what they might say back, how I would know what to say in what kind of situation and how to keep myself and my own kid safe in order to intervene.  

I think that the thing that I'm the most nervous about (other than the possible outcome that my own child could be hurt by someone after I spoke to them) is that by stepping in, I'm stepping into somebody's else story, a story that I know next to nothing about.  

So I keep to what I DO know:  I am feeling nervous right now because I'm worried that this kid is going to get hurt.  I'd like to find out if there's something I could do to help this situation be less tense.  Are you willing to take a second and talk about what's happening with me?

I watched a mom smacking and slapping her child after picking her up from camp one afternoon.  She had actually been brought out by the counselors, and I got the impression that she had been kicked out of camp for the day, and the mom was really mad.  I walked over to the car, and just made eye contact with her for a few secdonds, trying to stay calm and grounded.  When she didn't roll down the window, or drive away, I kept watching her and started dialing, calling the local police and explained the situation.  She rolled down her window and yelled What!?  What do YOU want?!  I said, I'd like to know if you need some help.  It looks like things are getting out of control.  Can I help at all?  She grunts and rolls the window back up, but she did stop smacking the kid.  (we left before the police came so I was spared that awkwardness) I don't think that she'll never smack that kid again.  but she did stop that time.  

I think that the point that abusive parents will take out anger and embarrassment on their kids is absolutely true.  I also think that that would be true whether I intervened or not, and at that point, I'm intervening just to remove the invisibility from the equation, to say to the kid getting hit, and my kid, and hell, anyone else watching, that I am uncomfortable and worried for this kid and I would like to find out if there's something that can be done.

Having been an abused kid (I was hit with belts, wire-coat hangers, toys, whatever was handy), I want to endorse intervening, but it must be done carefully, and never in a judgmental way.  I like the idea of complementing the kid.  A woman once intervened when my mom and I were out (I guess I was 5 or so) and said that yes, I'd been bad, but there were better ways of punishing that behavior.  My mom apologized, drove me home, then gave me the worst beating of my life, saying that the woman had agreed I was bad and I had embarrassed everyone.  It took me a lot longer to let go of the hate I had for that woman than it did for me to forgive my mom.  It still bothers me a little when I think about it.  Basically, don't tell other parents how to discipline their kids, cause you never know what effect that is going to have on the kid.