Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

K. Peterson — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 03:47:58 GMT

Give me a break.. Do you see caucasian people freaking out every time someone doesn't specifically get their ancestral history nailed down to the last detail? We're talking about small children who, at that age, just need to know the basic story that the indians helped the Pilgrims, what they ate, and what it means to be thankful. The rest can come at a more age-appropriate time.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

karmamama — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:36:34 GMT

Wow. I'm a professor of American history and frankly, I don't see a problem with having tots dress up as pilgrims and indians and having Thanksgiving, especially when the story is retold with age-appropriate accuracy - that the Pilgrims did not have the right food and clothes to sustain a long winter in their new home, and the native people gave them both gifts and knowledge. Save the sad stuff for later - there's plenty of time. As for making "caricatures" of the Indians, it's not as though I think kids should be doing this in middle school. But as an introduction to history? It's not so terrible. And the pilgrims are basically cartoon characters, too, you know - no one mentions that Puritan women basically had no personal rights, now, do they?

But some of the stories you all tell are cruel and sad. At my elementary school, you were randomly assigned your pilgrim/indian status - but we did spend a fair amount of time in november making Indian headdresses. For the whole month, any time you did something extra good, you got to put a feather in your headdress, and the day before the big school feast, the boy and girl who had the fullest headdresses got to go and invite the administration to the party! It was a VERY big deal. So everyone wanted to be the Indians and wear their headdresses - and also showed that the Indians were the ones who invited and took control of the situation, now that I think about it.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

patricia — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:23:30 GMT

Colette, I agree with you that some historical accuracy regarding the Wampanoag tribe would be desireable. And to be clear, when I say "is a little pan-Indianism so horrible?", I'm keeping in mind that the kids are FIVE. I maintain that if we teach them historically accurate details regarding the Wampanoag, and deal with the vast diversity of other native tribes by indicating that there were other tribes out there and they lived and dressed and spoke differently, that should be sufficient. That's ALL I meant, and I am talking about kindergartners, here, not high school kids or even 10 year olds. Despite being labeled a racist (which I do NOT appreciate), I am perfectly aware of the differences between many native tribes, and have been for a very long time, despite having been taught the incorrect info when I was 6. If we teach the kids correctly about the tribe in question, seems like we don't necessarily have to go into the entire history and culture of all tribes at that time.

But manjari and Knitty, I really see what the problem is now. I was confused, because the thrust of the protest, as it's been reported, is that the protesters are concerned with demeaning the child's native heritage. But I really see that the issue, for you two and probably for that mom as well, is that the white people are not portrayed badly enough. I mean, it can't be just the simple isolated incident that the Wampanoag helped the Puritans, and that 5 year olds can learn about cooperation. No, we have to start our kids off reminding them (as if they are ever allowed to forget) that the Pilgrims were there as opressors, and didn't respect the natives' right to be there, and were generally all around bad people. White people bad! Silly me, I addressed the portrayal of the natives in my comments above, not the evil whites.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

Knitty — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 05:26:27 GMT

Thank you, Manjari -- you put it much better than I could. Innocent refugees, my ass.

On a related note, I'm currently reading the Little House (Laura Ingals Wilder) books to my small niece and keep having to skip over sections where "Ma" brays her ignorance and racism about the Native Americans. It's so disgusting that I'm tempted to just chuck the books and not bother editing them for my daughter... but I suppose the better approach will be to wait until she's old enough to understand, then pause the stories to explain about entitlement, racism, ignorance, and good-people-can-suck-too.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

Manjari — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 03:24:16 GMT

Patricia, are you KIDDING me? Are you really that invested in perpetuating the myth? What's wrong with a little pan-Indianism? You probably don't even realize how racist that is. Should we assume that 5 year old children are not capable of learning (or even hearing about) distinctions between very different people?

From Oyate.org:

"Fact: The colonists were not just innocent refugees from religious persecution. By 1620, hundreds of Native people had already been to England and back, most as captives; so the Plymoth colonists knew full well that the land they were settling on was inhabited. Nevertheless, their belief system taught them that any land that was “unimproved” was “wild” and theirs for the taking; that the people who lived there were roving heathens with no right to the land. Both the Separatists and Puritans were rigid fundamentalists who came here fully intending to take the land away from its Native inhabitants and establish a new nation, their “Holy Kingdom.” The Plimoth colonists were never concerned with “freedom of religion” for anyone but themselves."

There is also more information at that site and the one below it.

www.oyate.org/.../shortthanks.html

www.nativecircle.com/mlmThanksgivingmyth.html

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

Colette — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 03:10:11 GMT

I would say my main problem with the costumes is that they are not what the people from that part of the country would have worn.

So many Americans grow up thinking that all Indians ride horses, wear headbands with a feather sticking up in the back, live in teepees, and call corn "maize." How hard would it be to change the imagery in classrooms to more accurately reflect the specific tribes actually in the area?

It's frustrating because cultural diversity in elementary schools is so often presented as Asian, African, Native American (a term hardly any Indians use to describe ourselves, and Hispanic- while Europeans get to be specifically Irish, Italian, German, etc.

Millions of my ancestors died, starved, and experienced major trauma for the US to even exist. Is it really that hard to show a little respect? It's not difficult to teach an age-appropriate unit on Thanksgiving. As I said earlier, tribal schools have been doing it all along.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

patricia — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:35:04 GMT

Also, I don't think it inappropriate to add in a short, "The Pilgrims brought a whole bunch of diseases and caused a lot of Native Americans to die" to a Thanksgiving story, but otherwise, what else about the Thanksgiving myth is sugarcoating? The Puritans were not the ones who engaged in the crazy land grabs and murderous extermination, IIRC.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

patricia — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:33:09 GMT

I guess I don't understand why the "crazy Thanksgiving myth" is so terrible? I mean, in no context does it make the Native Americans involved look bad. I agree, we could update it with the idea that they saved the Puritans' bacon (I actually think I learned it this way in elementary school), rather than that the two groups shared, but is it really so terrible to engage in a little pan-Indianism with kids who are FIVE? I'm fairly sure teaching the distinctions between different tribes are going to go over their heads at that point. Or could be handled with a simple "These were the Native Americans who helped the Pilgrims, but there were many others who lived in different parts of the country and had different customs. We'll learn about those later."

I'm just not sure it's that socially irresponsible to teach to the level of comprehension of the students, and the Thansgiving story has always seemed very pro-Native American to me. I really don't understand the protest, frankly.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

Manjari — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:09:50 GMT

I'm with Colette 100% on this. These Thanksgiving plays and costumes are just socially irresponsible. Yes, children and adults should enjoy the holiday now in a spirit of thankfulness and fun, but that doesn't have to depend on historical lies. Children can understand more than we think, and telling them lies to sugarcoat the past is plain stupid. Of course things have to be explained in an age appropriate way, but that doesn't mean we have to continue to teach the crazy Thanksgiving myth we were taught in school.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

Mamallama — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:23:04 GMT

Everyone in my daughter's kindergarten class this year made both a Native American costume and a pilgrim costume. They got to decide for themselves how they wanted to dress up and I can tell you that they were a pretty even split. Personally, I think it's a great idea.

This is hard enough to teach to young kids and the costume gets them interested and involved. If anything it starts the conversation. She understands that the Native Americans were here first, that the pilgrims are her ancestors and that they were far from perfect and would have died without the help they received.

Let's keep it open and honest on a level that 5 years old can understand. Costumes are a great tool to get there.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

Colette — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:12:08 GMT

This is not about "political correctness," it's about social responsibility. When I was a kid, I was the only American Indian in the class. My third grade teacher had everyone dress as Pilgrims except me. It was horrible. But I'm not an Eastern Woodland Native- I'm from the Southwest. That culture has about as much to do with me as Irish culture has to do with Istanbul.

You can certainly teach Thanksgiving to young children without going over their heads. My younger brother and sister both went to tribal school, where Thanksgiving was part of the curriculum. There, they learned how the Pilgrims came very ill-prepared and that the Native people gave them the gift of food. When I learned about T-day in school, the emphasis was on sharing, which is false. The Wampanoag bailed those ill-equipped Puritans out, plain and simple. The Puritans didn't give those Native people anything but disease.

I know that I do not want my children to grow up having our identity caricatured. Thanksgiving is just further reinforcement of pan-Indianism and the continued belief in Manifest Destiny. I spent my undergraduate years at friends' homes, where I was told multiple times how funny it was to have a "real Indian" at their Thanksgiving table.

Not cute, folks.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

Bunny — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:06:44 GMT

Maeby, that sounds dreadful :(

I would suggest a fair compromise: let the kids have a fun, simple, age-appropriate Thanksgiving like they are now, when they're five, and then teach them in detail about the atrocities visited on Native Americans when they're in middle school and will 1) find it interesting and 2) be old enough to grasp it. Just make sure you include the latter with the former.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

Knitty — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:41:01 GMT

For me, it's less about "political correctness" (why does that term get hauled out whenever a group of people ask for respectful treatment?) than not treating American Indians as caricatures. I think children should be taught the truth about how we acquired this land; maybe that's being done now, but when I was a kid it was all self-serving lies.

That probably doesn't need to begin in Kindergarten, of course.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

whoa — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:26:28 GMT

Maeby, your story reminds me of the Thanksgiving play in "Addams Family Values"! The roles were definitely randomly-assigned at my elementary school.

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

Shannon — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:59:24 GMT

I think maybe the systematic persecution of Native Americans is a little bit over the heads of most kindergarteners. Would the mother be happy if no costumes were involved? That seems like a good compromise. (Though it seemed from the article that the costumes were randomly-assigned, not in a racist way like Maeby's school did.)

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

maeby — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:24:01 GMT

The thing that bothered me growing up is that the darker skinned kids always played the native americans and the white kids played the pilgrims. Yes, we did look more like them, but shouldnt we just mix it all up since its just for fun anyway?

The white kids did in fact feel this sense of superiority over the minority kids who had to play the native americans, at least in my experiences. I DREADED thanksgiving time at school. I knew we were going to do a play, i knew they were going to say i was playing one of the indians. So for the entire time between practicing and putting on the play and a few weeks afterwards, the white kids only wanted to play with each other and any time you would try to mix and mingle they would say something about "icky indians" or something dealing with the play. We were just kids and kids are dumb sometimes, but at the time it really sucked. Other than this it was a very happy co-mingly school with great students and teachers. Everything turned out ok though, I found Babble ;)

re: Are Elementary School Thanksgivings Racist Or Just Outdated?

leahsmom — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:03:47 GMT

It could - and kids could dress up as other things! There's no need to give up the element of fun and play on the holiday, even if the school does decide dressing up in characterizations like these isn't cool.