Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

Reverse Vasectomy — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:29:33 GMT

I think this is ridiculous. Whose views are they exactly? something seems to be misunderstood.

-Martin

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

sittinginenvironmentalhealthclass — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 03:42:27 GMT

Additionally, I would like to point out that the author based her entire attitude of the Catholic Church on her limited experience. It is an individual responsibility to seek out information to augment personal experience, as it are often biased. I have had terrible experiences with a variety of churches but have retained respect for the philosophies of many of them. The teachings of the Catholic Church do discuss children as a blessing and do not command compulsive procreation. Perhaps more time invested in research would have revealed a more balanced view.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

sittinginenvironmentalhealthclass — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 02:34:18 GMT

It is interesting to me, and somewhat ironic, that many who claim to be environmentally friendly (questioning every possible ingredient that is in their products) are quick to dismiss contraceptives as safe. Perhaps it is because population control is thought to be achieved through the use of contraceptives and perhaps this outweighs the potential dangers that contraceptives might pose (coincidentally, many European countries are not producing enough children to account for deaths). All of this is quite theoretical and the data are confusing and confounding at best. I would like to say that issues such as contraception and its long term effects is extremely complicated and is not a black and white issue as some have flamboyantly suggested. I am not naïve enough to believe that the pill is entirely good or entirely bad just as I believe there is a balance between being environmentally friendly and promoting human development.

The Catholic Church has been around for some time and its teachings on contraception are not idiotic or impulsive but meticulously developed and well supported. From a completely cynical viewpoint, it is unlikely that any organization of such power would jeopardize its position by releasing ridiculous teachings that are so obviously counter-cultural.

To those who claim that the Catholic Church wants to raise "more Catholic babies" this is a bit silly considering that the Church's standpoint on contraception was written to be relevant to whole societies and populations, not only Catholics. The Church is attempting to combat the popular yet subtle notion that life is dispensable based on individual convenience. While you may disagree with its methods or call it hypocritical, the Church is attempting to promote self-sacrificial love and altruism among couples while preserving the dignity of procreation. Additionally, the Church offers many services to women and families who both choose to abort unplanned pregnancies and keep unplanned pregnancies. I am not longer a practicing Catholic but I recognize that the teachings of the Church, even primitive teachings regarding love for neighbor and the importance of human dignity, are an excellent way to construct a society. There are many excellent components of the Catholic Church that are not negated by human hypocrisy and error. If we conducted our political decisions this way none of us would vote (yes, even for Obama).

Finally, I find it a little frustrating that people who call themselves ‘liberal’ and ‘open-minded’ are being quite close-minded to many conservative arguments that have merit and are at least worth listening to. Every argument is an argument for a reason, based on some type of evidence. These social issues are not easily resolved and discussion based on polarization of opinions leads to a lack of compromise and accomplishment. Perhaps being liberal involves adopting a set of policies and mindsets that are considered liberal. In the end, aren’t they doing the same things they accuse the conservatives of doing?

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

sylrayj — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 01:43:26 GMT

What irritates me the most about the idea that the Pill is such a terrible thing is that at least for a long time, the hormones for the Pill were obtained from pregnant mare urine - implying that pregnant animals naturally secrete these hormones. So if we take the hormones excreted from horses, and don't become pregnant, how much more or less is being released from our bodies than if we didn't take the hormones, became pregnant, and naturally became hormone factories? Perhaps that question could lead to some more enlightening research.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

lovedannygansle — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:09:56 GMT

Trace-

Spreading hate by the use of false stereotypes is dangerous for all religions. Exposing how these stereotypes are both false and damaging is necessary to productive dialogue in a respectful community. Based on your responses to me (mocking and namecalling included), however, sounds like you do not agree.

Check out this link to see where some of your prejudices about Catholicism may be rooted. Good read.

www.amazon.com/.../ref=si3_rdr_bb_product

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

Trace — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:51:31 GMT

The Conquistadores de Catholicism have spoken! ;) Ballsy... Right on man, right on!

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

lovedannygansle — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 02:05:37 GMT

ballsmoduff -

No disrespect, but you do not have the slightest grasp of Catholicism. In fact, your ideas about conversion could not be further from the truth. The Crusades are ancient history (attempts at widespread postylization are defunct in Catholicism - there are NO attempts to seek out and convert people of other faiths, NONE) and there is no agenda from the Vatican to incresase the Catholic population (by advocating against birth control) as you allege.

You are certainly free to express an opinion here - heck, this is what this forum is for, but I find it upsetting that people seem to think they know, and therefore, can dump on Catholicism.

FYI - over 90% of American Catholics use artifical birth control. We are not going to hell because of it, no Catholic believes that. Stop spreading false information.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

ballsymcduff — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:55:47 GMT

It's funny when it comes to religion people start to freak. I love it. Me? Sure I was raised baptist, southern baptist no less. But now? Screw it. I've seen too much and read too much to believe that anyone on Earth can be so holy.

I know this is a soap box, but who are we to tell other humans what to do to go to "heaven?" I believe we make our own heaven and hell and deal with the consequences of our actions.

I still want to know, after a guy scores a touchdown in a football game he praises God, does the guy who throws the interception that let to the touchdown praise God? I know I'm going to catch flack for that, but hey listen, we've always said there's a separation of church and state but it's never been true. What does it say on our money? In God We Trust? And we wonder why muslims distrust us. Hmm...

As for this story, I think only one or two people seem to bring up a real valid point. Overpopulation is dooming this planet. The resources on this Earth are strained at best, look at the demand on oil, the warming of the climate and the shrinking of forests. Slowly we are killing the things we feed off of. So we should bring in more catholic children to form the vatican's own holy army. Woo hoo, let's gear up the crusades, and we'll go conquer some infidel's land. Nothing like pushing religion in people's faces. All at the expense of natural resources. Well I guess who needs oil when you have horses and chariots to zoom on up to heaven after converting some Middle Eastern muslim into a catholic.

If a woman wants to use birth control, who is a bunch of non-sexual men to say what she can do? If I was told to stop playing video games or i'd be left out of the line to heaven, well i guess there'd be some gaming in hell, if it does exist.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

JeanneSager — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:00:03 GMT

SJ: dissent away, that's the beauty of blogging. I was only asking because of your comments about third-hand reporting.

As for whether I've read dissenting opinion, yes, I have. I enjoy them most for the ability to provoke thought and carry the conversation forward. Thank you for being a worth "adversary!"

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

sj — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 19:42:31 GMT

Since you are curious, I'll bite: yes, I have. Have you ever read dissenting comments before? What's wrong with commenting on an author's opinion in the "comment" section. I argue that you have a (maybe spot-on, but nevertheless . . .) poorly supported, poorly articulated opinion--on both the issue of synthetic estrogens' effects on our environment, and on the Catholic church's reasonings behind their beliefs.

Whether I agree or disagree with an opinion hardly matters to me if it gives me something to ponder, challenge, or discover; I just suggested that more research would, on both issues, would make a more impactful written opinion.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

JeanneSager — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 19:21:16 GMT

SJ: I could argue this all day, but I'm curious - have you ever read a blog before? I have never said that this was anything more than opinion, which is precisely what a blog is.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

sj — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:14:52 GMT

So your point really was to bash the church. But why not put some meat on your criticism? Then I think people will see it as constructive criticism instead of just nasty jabs.

You've grown up Catholic? CYO? Married? You admit that that hardly makes you a theologian. And "baby-making" homilies? Come on. Every American Catholic church I have ever been to has been far too chicken (or too sensitive, or too dissident, who knows) to talk about these controversial issues from the pulpit. I guess you had different experiences; maybe I've had the aberrant experiences . . . or maybe you have.

You chose to use Yahoo! news as your source of info. What is that? Third hand reporting? Jeanne read, that Yahoo said, that the Vatican wrote, about some studies someone else conducted . . . .

What about citing "Love and Responsibiliy" or "Theology of the Body" or, the actual encyclical Yahoo was referring to or the actual studies that the referred encyclical referred to?

I disagree when you said, "I am not poking fun at someone else's religion, I'm highlighting major concerns I have with MY OWN religion." I found little thought in this piece, only vitriol--who cares if it is your religion or not.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

JeanneSager — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:04:48 GMT

LoveDanny. . . Thanks for the lively and though-provoking discussion. You're right, thoughtful debate is more of what is needed rather than the "piling on" of criticism.

I also agree with you that Catholics are hardly worth more criticism than other religions (don't get me started on some evangelical faiths). But does that mean we're any less worthy?

I would simply like there to be a day when I'm not ashamed of my Church - or at least when my pride for the Church can outweigh any disagreements I have with it (because no one can make anyone happy 100 percent of the time!).

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

lovedannygansle — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:54:45 GMT

I appreciate your responses - and certainly contraception in the Church is an issue worth discussing - including the obvious hypocricy on the part of the church. I think, in the end, I am bothered by the TONE that allows for a "piling on" and a dismissiveness than rational discussion. Many of the comments reflect that, and I feel were guided by your post. Pointing out inconsistencies between value systems and the church differs greatly from the slant of your post.

I'm still shaking my head at your stance that as Catholics, we deserve to be "picked on" and that we deserve it based on "real fact". More than other religions? And for the life of me, I can't see why anyone of any relgion wouldn't be completely offended by Trace's comments, sarcasm or no.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

JeanneSager — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:44:17 GMT

LoveDanny. . . I did not mean to imply that "steadfast faith" was in insult. Nor did I mean to dismiss everything the Church stands for.

However, your experience in the Church and mine have greatly differed. You may not have been told you had to make babies, but I have. I have sat in CCD classes with a pen in my hand, being instructed by a male teacher to write letters to my Congressmen on behalf of the Church to complain about abortion and the availability of the pill. I was 12. That wasn't up to the Church; it was up to my parents (and to their credit, they allowed me to rip up the letter once I got home).

You also missed the fact that my post admits that picking on this aspect of the Church is an easy mark. Sadly, that's why it is incumbent on Catholics like you and I to not only question the Church but to act on it. To write posts that call them out for blatant misogyny and for missing the mark on contraception – so that the Church can one day regain its voice of reason and authority in the world.

The reason Trace (although, honestly, I took "silly Catholics" as sarcasm in her case) and others "pick on" Catholics is because we deserve it. In this case, the stereotype is very much based on real fact.

So why am I still a Catholic? Because there is good in the church. Unfortunately, it's been overshadowed by much more than a stereotype. And in order to let that good shine in the world, we need to fight it. Yes, even if it means referring to the "boys who don't have sex."

Because it's easy to make demands on the way people should parent when you've never had kids. It's easy to put your own ideas of the way a body should be treated, way it should work, when it isn't your own.

But as a parent (remember, this is a parenting blog - not one to discuss every issue in the Vatican), and as a woman, and yes, a Catholic, I know what it's like on the other side of those demands.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

lovedannygansle — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:14:39 GMT

Jeanne-

Of course you have the right to question the Church's teaching, particularly as a Catholic. I also have critcisms (not far off from yours - conctraception and role of women among others) of the church and do not stand by blindly and accept everything from the Vatican. Like me, there are many Obama-loving, left-wing Catholics.

I simply take great offense to your dismissiveness and tone when referring to the church leadership as the "boys who don't have sex". I was raised a Catholic, and probably have a more impressive resume with regards to my church participation etc...and I have never been told I need to make babies to be a "good Catholic girl". Further, simply identifying yourself as a Catholic doesn't make you more entitled to attack the church (based on this issue) than a non-Catholic. I'm afraid your own experience and attitudes feed stereotypes that many, unfortunately, hold about Catholics - (see comment from Trace). Also, check out the link for this book:

www.amazon.com/.../0195154800

This has nothing to do with my "steadfast faith" - I struggle with is as much as anyone. I never said you don't have the right to question the church. It has more to do with respect and tolerance for a church that is much much more than it's views on contraception.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

JeanneSager — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:05:50 GMT

Sarah, lovedanny..., et al.: Yes, it takes a very negative tone about the church - and as sj (albeit sarcastically) pointed out, that IS the point of this post.

I am a Catholic. I was baptised into the Catholic church the month after I was born, went to seven years of CCD, four years of CYO. I was married in the Catholic church. I went through pre-cana and pre-marriage counseling with a priest.

I am not poking fun at someone else's religion, I'm highlighting major concerns I have with MY OWN religion. Which I would argue makes me a tad bit more knowledgeable about the subject. Not that I am - by far - an expert on the Vatican or its teachings.

But I have been to several Catholic churches in my life, sat through countless sermons. And time, after time, I heard about how our job was to make babies, raise them Catholic.

This is, after all, a parenting blog, so that is what I focused on - and the Vatican made this pronouncement, not me. Regardless of the aspects of Catholicism that I support, that I believe did make me a better person (the morality teachings are invaluable), I am still deeply disturbed by the attitude the church has traditionally taken toward procreation.

There is no accounting of what happens to those babies once they are brought into this world, whether parents can physically, financially or emotionally handle raising that child. Go to pre-marriage counseling with a priest, and you are informed you WILL procreate and you WILL raise those children Catholic. Not, "may God bless you with children," but "go forth and procreate."

I'm sorry that it hit you in the gut "lovedanny..." but I have as much right to question the church's teachings as any other Catholic. What's more, I have the right to demand that the Church take a hard look at its attitudes and start focusing on what's better for the people of the Church (and the world) - procreating at all costs? or creating families built on love, ability to parent, ability to provide a roof over their heads and food in their bellies?

Sarah, LoveDanny..., I appreciate your steadfast faith. I appreciate your defense of the Church you love. However, to insinuate that the Church should not be questioned is exactly what I AM questioning. Why is the Church handed this power in your/our lives? What ever happened to God's love for his children?

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

lovedannygansle — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:26:43 GMT

Jeanne-

As a Catholic (and a socially liberal one, at that), I'm struggling with the tone of your piece. I find that Catholoicism is the last religion around that people feel confortable kicking around without reservation or sensitivity to members of the faith. There doesn't seem to be the same stigma attached to disparraging Catholics (or the Church) as there is to other religions.

I made this statement to another commenter, but the tone seems to make harsh crisicisms and accusations that reflect on the entire religion and it's members. I could never imagine writing a piece about another Church's leadership the way you have.

I agree with Sarah that the tone of this piece departs from the original argument, and has a very negative tone at the Church and takes very uncalled-for cheap shots. The "making more Caholic babies" statement got me in the gut.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

Sarah — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:08:52 GMT

Now that I've had a minute to reflect on this, let me clarify one thing--it was wrong of me to state that you should reconsider being a Catholic because you haven't fully committed to the Church. That's not the message I want to send.

However, I do want to say that by being generally disbelieving of and misinformed about the Church's teachings on family life--and then spreading those falsehoods around publicly--you are doing a great disservice to the Church. Truly devoted Catholics understand that life is the most important thing that we have been given on this Earth, and it should be cherished. The Church's position on birth control serves only to spread that message, if you honestly take the time to understand it.

I would not wish for any Catholic--casual or not--to reconsider being Catholic. I would only hope that you could reconsider what being Catholic actually means, and learn to look more objectively at what the Church teaches and why. Maybe from there, you could reconnect more with your own Catholic identity.

I do genuinely hope that for you, despite how it may have sounded in my earlier post. Best wishes and God bless.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

Sarah — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:42:31 GMT

This is one of the most negatively biased articles I've ever read on this website, and honestly it's very discouraging. Jeanne, if you really think being a Catholic is all about "ducking your head in shame" when the Church speaks out on controversial issues, then maybe you should reconsider your religious viewpoint; you're doing more harm to the religion by being a "casual Catholic" than if you weren't a Catholic at all.

Nevermind the fact that you didn't even consider that there might actually be some validity to the Vatican's study because you apparently consider the Church to be sexist and misogynistic; what troubles me more is that as a Catholic, you don't seem to understand anything about the Church's teachings on having children.

The Church doesn't discourage the use of birth control simply because it has some hidden agenda to force women to "make more Catholic babies." The ability to bring another life into this world is a gift and a blessing, and it's one that we should not abuse or take for granted. As both a woman and a Catholic, you should be ashamed of yourself for not understanding that better.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

sj — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:28:42 GMT

There are many different types of hormones in different forms of hormonal birth control; there are many different types of estrogen. So, no the pill with synthetic hormones aren't just "the same" as some people here have wondered. Similar, but not the same. In fact even in our bodies we have different types of estrogen. There is no 1 type found universally in humans, pills, animals, plants etc.

This is why this article is dangerous. It minimizes a real debate about a medicine's effect. The effect may be negligible, perhaps a complete non-issue, but why not ask the question to be sure?

I wouldn't use the Vatican's opinion to introduce a scientific debate, and I certainly wouldn't make it the only cited source as in this article . . . unless maybe I was a priest in the pulpit.

Look up different estrogens in our environment:

www.nwhealth.edu/.../estro2.html

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

Alice — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:25:40 GMT

Isn't the Pill made up of the same hormones our bodies have nautrally when we are pregnant, just a bit more of them so our bodies think they are already pregnant so we cant get pregnant? If so, then pregnant women are making men infertile since we all pee, those on the Pill and those that are pregnant.

This is Hogwash designed by the church using our environmental paranoia against us. They are criminally clever.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

Trace — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:00:05 GMT

lovedannygansle:

I didn't mean to be offensive towards any one person or idea, sorry you feel offended.

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

sj — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:56:52 GMT

What type of article is this? You roll your eyes because the Vatican talks about it . . . okay . . . but is it true? Did you write and scoff when scientists addressed this at a conference regarding the Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta? What about the professional opinions of Dr. Norris physiology prof from University of Colorado?

Pharmaceutical companies may use this info to create more eco-friendly birth control pills. Scientists are using the info to keep a close watch on the fish in Washington State's rivers. The Catholic church will use this info to confirm their stance on artificial birth control. That's what they do. But this article seems to suggest that _how_ an organization uses the info affects whether the findings are credible or not.

Was the purpose of this piece was to inform everyone that Jeanne Sager doesn't trust the Vatican in matters of birth control? If so, mission accomplished. However, this leaves the question conveniently avoided, is it true? Is synthetic estrogen harmful to our environment?

re: Vatican to Women: The Pill Pollutes Environment, His Testes

leahsmom — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:45:22 GMT

Aren't the hormones in the pill hormones the body would naturally produce? So wouldn't we be excreting them anyway?