Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

iris — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:54:12 GMT

i love this piece. i just read the roiphe essay in question and had googled 'katie roiphe annoying'.

she just seems to be such a privileged brat. i have had a sick fascination with her unbalanced, egocentric rants since her first effort on date rape.

she starts in about facebook profile photos and then tries to make it into some kind of social commentary attacking women who identify strongly as mothers. i'm surprised that she is now a professor. her writing still seems bratty and young.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Rebecca — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 01:38:55 GMT

I think this whole article is BS. If you're ashamed of putting your childs' photo on an internet website then lets just all shoot ourselves now! Lets put paper bags over our kids' face when we go out in public because we don't want a stranger looking at them...Whoever wrote this is very immature and is "trying" to be heard. I use my daughters picture as a profile picture quite a bit...Its my way of saying "I'm proud of her". Aren't there worse things to worry about? Like putting our 12 year old girls on birth control for example...Now THAT is a story to tell!

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Princess Ariel — Sat, 06 Jun 2009 06:57:02 GMT

There are many reasons why women (and men) use pictures of their children for their Facebook profile. One of my theories is guilt - I'm not a good parent if I don't. Without looking into each Facebook album, how does she know that the picture is not of the actual person as a child, as one of my friends did? How about a happy medium - a picture of you with your child, or even the whole family? One friend used a recent picture taken that was of everyone's feet. Wonder what Katie would have to say about that?

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Megan — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 01:05:52 GMT

Obviously, Roiphe speculated and oversimplified (like many popular press authors). It's interesting just how defensive of a response she encited. I mean, she never said she doesn't like your children (or anyone else's), and she didn't intend to single out one woman or another. It *is* an interesting observation that so many women (and men) display their children in a profile image, and I can see her argument shadowing arguments that follow the history of motherhood (what it's meant over the years and what it means now). Women *have*, at times in history, lost their autonomy after becoming mothers.

Is it *because* she's an academic? Is it because her status -- her identity, excludes her from being speculative?

PS -

Who cares if there are more important things to discuss -- she's discussing her observation that there are lots of kids faces on mother's profiles on facebook. Can you imagine how the world would be different if we were all evaluated by how *important* the subjects that we talked about or wrote about were?

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Jane — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:21:53 GMT

Nonsense. Of course I'm proud of my child. If I had 1968 Camaro I'd throw that up on my profile photo too.

But I do get annoyed when the only picture you can see of someone who is not a friend is the child--esp. when you haven't seen someone in 20 years and can't remember them exactly and they have a different name (another argument we can have). But I don't think it's a feminist problem.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Dew — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:54:34 GMT

I think anyone who's really exercised over this should read this single salient point and explain what they think is wrong with it (and be prepared to defend yourself against those of us who think that YOU are as important as your offspring are):

"One’s children are of course an important achievement, and arguably one’s most important achievement, but that doesn’t mean that they are who you are."

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Janice — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:05:22 GMT

Some of us use our kids' pictures because we don't happen to have a lot of digital pictures of ourselves sitting around. I mean really, I don't have a headshot and I don't have anyone following me around with a camera. I do however have kids with grandparents, so I have thousands of pictures of them!

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Sheri — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 03:34:13 GMT

I've put my kid's pics on my fb because they are much cuter and skinnier than me. Sad but true.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Amy Kuras — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:42:54 GMT

In my case? I am very self conscious about my looks and have gained weight and always look exhausted since kid #2 has come along. Do I want everyone I have ever met in my life to be able to see that? No, I do not. My kids, however, are always cute and dewy-eyed. I'd use my cats if I had a good one.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Tracee Sioux — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:20:52 GMT

For someone who claims not to care what Katie Roiphe thinks or about the cultural relevance of Facebook - you sure devoted a lot of time and energy and space to the topic.

It's even worse when a guy puts a picture of his girlfriend (he's not hiding, he's bragging - and so are the mothers) and you spend a a few minutes wondering who would name their daughter "Travis."

Women like their kids. Is that a big revelation or an anti-feminist statement? Women are proud of and enamored by their kids. Putting their photos on Facebook is like flashing their photos from your wallet.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Chiken — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 14:52:52 GMT

Marj -

Do you have actual evidence that a child has EVER been harmed by a person who found his or her picture on Facebook?

Do you let your children ride in a car? Don't you think that it is MUCH more likely that they could be injured or killed in a car wreck than targeted in the manner you describe?

I recommend Lenore Skenazy's Free Range Kids book. I know it's been pushed on this site and in the rest of the media quite a bit lately, but for good reason.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

niki — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:25:52 GMT

......and maybe someone choses to use a photo of her kids as her profile picture just because she can't find one of herself that she likes 'cause she always looks red-faced and blotchy!!

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

hambutt — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:24:21 GMT

What does it mean if your profile picture is that of your cat?

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

ann05 — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 03:07:01 GMT

mamazee73, no offense, but I think you totally missed my point.

In the portion you quoted I said, if staying at home is for you, do it. I also said, pretty much exactly what you said, a lot of women aren't fortunate enough to make that choice. Maybe because their families can't afford it, because their spouse doesn't agree with them that this would constitute a job, because they live in unsafe neighborhoods and a daycare is better than their homes, because they are a single parent, etc.

You can make this choice. Other people can't. But if we pretend everybody has "choices" we don't have to recognize that no, not everybody does.

I think the notion that there are heaps of feminists out there telling people to reject their kids is a strawman (woman?). There are certain types of feminists that espouse that, sure. And some of them do see children as a route to oppression. It's not because children are inherently oppressive, or that caring for them is not without joy, but because they recognize in our current culture women who leave the workforce to raise children have a hard time getting back, that there are residual pay disparities because of maternity leaves (just held up by the supreme court!), that parenting by yourself can be lonely and tedious in a disconnected world and that it's not enough for all women.

Like I said, I would rather focus on changing these social forces than shaming individual women. But I won't pretend that problems don't exist, even if you think that makes me a "hard line feminist" who wants you to reject your children (which is nonsense, I'm home part time with my own).

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

mamazee73 — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 00:43:01 GMT

Ann05 said:

In general, I would say, believing that you are freely making "choices" allows you to ignore the way things are still imbalanced in society, as well as the many, many women who do not have your "choices." This is not to say that if being a stay-at-home mom is for you, you shouldn't do that, just that you shouldn't ignore disparities in incomes, support, housework etc for women in general

~~~This seems to me to be making assumptions, and making a no win situation for women like me, who have looked at all the options (my grandmother was a bank president - my dad strongly encouraged :) me to get a "useful degree" but was excited when i dropped out of music school to play in a band - which helped me get through most of university before i married, dropped out again and started a family..

I think the problem with this type of feminist (above) and Rolphe is that they can *never* see motherhood as a true option - it's always oppression. I honestly don't get that. I am home all day with the little people i brought into the world and love more than anything/one except for God and my husband :)... i bake bread, learn along with them, cuddle, snuggle... My friends very rarely are in the same position. Most are working full time, and leaving their frequently ill children with babysitters who make less than minimum wage. Most are trying to cut back or make sacrifices so they can have *some* of the joys of motherhood. Most say their husband is demanding that they work - that lifestyle choices have left them with no choice. Who is oppressed? Who has a lack of time for creative endeavour/political activism/self improvement/pure love and joy and quantity and well as quality time?...

Simone de Beauvoir said “No woman should be authorized to stay at home to raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one.”

Hard line feminists are demanding that all women reject their children and insist that being a mother isn't a whole career in itself, capable of enriching the lives of not only the children, but the mother, and father as well, and worthy of whole hearted devotion and application of all our faculties to do well.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

ann05 — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 00:11:49 GMT

I agree with you Jeanne, my guess is that the original author is an old school second wave feminist. Both ways are trying to get at the same thing, women need respect and parity for what they do-- be it child care or in the work force-- Rolphe is focusing on the short term, women's behavior and how it damages people's perceptions of them (they're only maternal, they are just their children) rather than working on larger structural issues. I'm always on the side of working on structural issues, not shaming women.

Still, I do get tired of people who brush aside all feminism has achieved (especially the second wavers, who now are "strident") by repeating "choice" over and over.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Whit Honea — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 22:40:20 GMT

Katie Rolphe works on many levels of ridiculous.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

JeanneSager — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:45:33 GMT

Ann05: very interesting article. And good point on incomes, etc. being disproportionate.

But I think that only proves the argument against Roiphe - that being proud of parenting isn't what women need to be fighting here. It's the lack of good maternity leave laws, lack of good paternity leave laws, etc.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Marj — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:18:56 GMT

People have been known to "harvest" pictures of women or children online to use for their own purposes. For instance, a friend of mine's ex-husband used a pic of a girl he found online to help himself pose as a woman online. A photo of your child in front of their school, along with his name can give someone the knowledge of where to find your kid, generally what time, and what to call them so that they can convince your kid to go with them. Those are only two things that can be done with pix found online. I'm not a stalker or murderer so I'm sure there are a lot I haven't thought of. The control of information and personal photos is also reccomended by nearly all police.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Manjari — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:01:21 GMT

Brett, I love this post and I love you.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Chimomma — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:55:28 GMT

Yeah... My profile pictures have alternated between my husband, me alone, me and him together, my parents wedding photo, my dog, my baby, and a slew of other things. The notion that my identity is defined by how I present my page on a social networking site is almost as dumb as saying that date-rape victims were asking for it.

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Melanie — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:46:33 GMT

Brett (and others), I am totally with you on this. I was incensed by Roiphe's stupid and condescending article also. I, too, posted it on my FB page.

I admit, though, it DID give me pause if only to remind myself that YES, I am a mom but I am also ME. That is not a bad message...but I don't need Ms. Roiphe "reading into" my decision to put this or that photo on Facebook, geez!

Thanks for weighing in!

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Julie — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:13:44 GMT

I have always wondered what the logic is behind saying that having photos of your children online is not safe. How could this be used to harm or exploit the child? I am not being snarky, I am genuinely interested in what the thinking behind this is. I think that someone seeing a photo of your child on the internet is no different than someone seeing your child walking down the street and can't for the life of me figure out what people are afraid of. Can anyone enlighten me?

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

Laurel Birdsong — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:04:14 GMT

Thanks for your dressing down of the academic babble! I really agree. My take on Facebook, in my circle of friends, is that it is for catching up. I find high school friends, old drinking buddies, college professors. What better way to get people on my wave length than a few pics of me and the babe of mine?? I see her point though- there are women who have literally no pictures of themselves. I was aware of that "issue" when posting my own kid's pics. However, parenting is consuming. Whether you're a woman or a man, it takes everything you have. I like being able to show off my cute kid as part of my life too. Thanks... L

re: Katie Roiphe Doesn't Like You Or Your Kids

AnotherKatie — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 19:33:05 GMT

"...Roiphe seems to have a very immature view of the world (she calls herself "Katie" for Pete's sake)..."

I happen to call myself Katie as well. It's my name.

While I enjoyed your article for the most part and was thoroughly irritated by that other Katie's ramblings, I thought this last non-point hurt your stance and credibility more than it helped.