Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

heatherw — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:29:19 GMT

I'm not sure where the elitism or snobbery is in this article. Maybe it's because I agree with Ms.Redsy on this one. What I find elitist, actually, is the argument that "It's none of anyone's business what I drive, or my reasons for doing it". That kind of argument is tantamount the the NIMBY argument - it's great for *other* people to be concerned about rising gas prices and their impact on the environment, but *I* have *important* reasons for driving an Escalade or Hummer.

Maybe another reason large, gas guzzling vehicles should be unpopular is that they are unnecessarily dangerous. Just a thought.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Treespeed — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:07:00 GMT

Sherman B,

I never claimed to be poor, and to claim that my argument isn't valid is crap, because there were times in my life when I was "poor" as in working two jobs and not afford groceries or a winter coat poor. Just because I'm white doesn't mean that I can't contribute to a conversation about how drug enforcement laws disproportionately affect minority communities. Yes, I'm better off now, but it doesn't change the fact that higher gas prices affect poor Americans much more than wealthy ones who drive the SUVs that you hold up as objects for your self righteous contempt.

And my condemnation of the ignorance of the SUV argument comes not from my use of this sort of vehicle but from simple economics. Yes, I'm doing well now, but I commute and shop almost exclusively by bicycle and have done so since my early teens.

And finally your math on the Prius is way off and doesn't take into acount that on higway miles, which I'm sure is what Jlrtaylor is driving, the Prius is no better than the Toyota Echo. Hybrids are only beneficial in stop and go traffic. It's amazing that the people who promote these cars seem to have the poorest understanding of how they actually work.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Michelle — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:31:25 GMT

Thanks Sherman for the dose of sanity here. While I agree with Mom2 that the choice of one's car is not the SOLE indicator of one's commitment to the environment, those who do CHOOSE to drive big cars understand that they will pay more at the pump. We have gotten a free ride on gas and energy prices compared to other developed countries for decades now, and it has contributed to us being the biggest per capita gas guzzlers and energy users on the face of this planet, and to a whole host of problems relating to this (middle east policy, pollution, etc.).

Higher prices will mean that people actually change their behavior, as they have done elsewhere, and I think that is actually the point of Rachael's post. To say that this is "elitist and smug" is ridiculous, and frankly smacks of the kind of self-entitlement that Americans are accused of all the time. (We deserve low prices!) Even lower income families in this country pay far less of a percentage of their income on gas and food then almost anywhere else in the world(there are FOOD RIOTS going on right now, for god's sake). This is uncomfortable and difficult for a lot of people, and I am afraid it will get worse, but we can't say we didn't see it coming. We've all contributed to it.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Mom2Two — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:12:39 GMT

Sorry, but four large dogs will not fit safely in a Prius. And we have tons of reasons for driving the Sienna, but I don't feel like I need to justify our choice here. It's our money and our business how we choose to spend it. And we certainly get a lot better than 14-17 MPH. And you know what? The insurance premiums on a Prius are much more than my Sienna.

As for my friend, she was hit by a drunk driver and her car was totalled. The drunk driver, in a larger car, was fine. She doesn't feel safe in a smaller car, and I can't blame her.

My point is, it isn't fair to judge a person's committment to the environment based only on their car. Particularly if the car belongs to someone you have never laid eyes on. Maybe that person with the huge Suburban has it for status. Or maybe they have 6 kids. And maybe they recycle everything that can possibly be recycled, only buy locally grown food, compost and recycle water. Does owning a Prius automatically mean you care more? What a crock of crap.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

ShermanB — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:47:54 GMT

Wow. Well, I feel like this is a great discussion. A few things I'd like to address having read the latest batch of commentary.

It's funny that people who own SUVs use "The Poor" as a reason high gas prices are destructive. It is, I mean, people who are poor certainly are impacted more, but I can't see any of the SUV drivers currently contributing to this conversation being poor. I make DIRT to support a family of 2.5 but certainly don't consider myself "poor". I'm not conceited enough to claim to understand that particular life situation. Y'all are strapped for cash maybe, but certainly not poor. Poor is "I can't afford the internet". From the looks of "Arden's Tale" I would say that you'd doing just fine TreeSpeed.

I'm also a fan of the "vets I work with" or "comfort to the terminally ill" statements. Does that bolster your argument in your head? Do you assume that it justifies your egocentric consumer habits? I work for a place that trains hospice workers. Do you like me better or value my opinion more about fuel economy? I sure hope not.

Mom2Two - I believe the type of car you drive absolutely shows your commitment to the environment. Certainly, the 8 person Sienna (14-17 mpg) shows that you don't give a hoot, whereas someone driving a hybrid has demonstrated that the environment is a little higher on their personal agenda. You may still care, but not enough to demostrate that with your car.

"Nearly killed in her old car" is a worthless counter argument. Was she nearly killed by a Sienna perhaps? Talking on the phone? Maybe trying to calm her dogs? I'm nearly killed every day by women driving SUVs as I walk to work. I'm in no hurry to write legislation against it.

You could fit four dogs in in a Prius. You may have to stack them or, you know, inconvenience them in some way but for 55 mpg the dogs will thank you.

jlrtaylor: I couldn't tell if that was 80 miles one way or total. Some math: Average gas prices in the country are $3.50. A '93 pathfinder averages 15 mpg which I'm sure you know. 80 miles = 5.33 gallons or $18.66. If that's one way you're paying $37.33 a day to drive to work and back, and that's without stopping at Wal Mart. Driving a Prius with 55 mpg average you would use 1.45 gallons to go 80 miles which would cost you $5.10 one way or $10.20 for the 160 mile gauntlet. Over one year you'd save $6782 on a Hybrid.

Bet the dogs would thank you for that too.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Manjari — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:51:01 GMT

I agree with Treespeed that this is a simple minded post. It's pure crap. The people you are happy to see stuck with higher gas prices are exactly the ones who won't really feel it.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Treespeed — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:27:51 GMT

This is the most simple minded post I've ever seen on this blog. "I"m only making fun of rich people and their big SUVs". What a bunch of simplistic nonsense. It's rich people who are the least fazed by the rise in gas prices, though you may hear them bitch the loudest. If you can already afford $60 fill up, an $80 one won't change your driving habits in the least. It's the poor who are hardest hit by rising oil prices. It's gas now, but pretty soon it will trickle down to higher food prices as companies pass on the cost of doing business.

And as far as car companies making fuel efficient cars, they've been doing this for decades and no one buys them. During the Nineties most companies were selling their economy cars at a loss to meet CAFE regulations and making profits on SUV markups. You don't need a hybrid to get fuel efficiency, just a light car with a small engine.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Mom2Two — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:00:09 GMT

I wasn't aware that the kind of car a person drives shows their committment to the environment.

My best friend drives a big SUV because she was nearly killed in an accident in her old car...a tiny little thing that got great gas mileage.

Most of the vets I work with drive SUVs because they all have multiple dogs. How do you fit four labs into a Prius?

And for the record, I drive an 8 passenger Sienna, even though we are a family of 4.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

jlrtaylor — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:15:05 GMT

Oh christ, are you kidding me?

Rachael, don't be surprised that people are calling you elitist and smug, because that's exactly the tone of this article.

Not everyone lives in a town with an accessable, convenient, or even existent public transportation system. So what do those people do? Sell their homes (ha!), get a new job, and move to a more urban area? With the state of the economy, even if you have to commute 80 miles to work every day, you should just be thankful you have a job, because more and more people don't.

Yes, it would be fantastic if we could ditch our cars and rely on the bus or train to get us where we need to go. It'd be economically and ecologically ideal. But that's the problem with idealism - there's always that pesky realism to figure out.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Tinkmom — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:17:36 GMT

As much as I like reading this blog everyday, the smug, elitest tone of this article makes me want to just close the window and never come here again. I'm just an average, working mom. I drive a '93 Pathfinder, commute 80 miles a day for work, and shop at walmart. I'm trying to make our family more green, but I'm just tired of this kind of crap. Cut us a bit of slack, please.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Sherman B — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 03:02:31 GMT

Seriously. Great article and I agree. Prices will go up no matter what. If it's not transportation cost it's something else. Doesn't it disgust you to think that the rising cost of your milk is profit for Exxon.

I think $5 gas is what we really need to start shifting the American megalomania concerning global issues. Let's make this conversation interesting shall we? When you comment here ssy also what kind of car you drive and what mileage you're getting.

Ok? OK. I'll start. I can't see worth a spit so I walk everywhere I go. When I can't walk I use mass transit. When I can't use that I don't go. The arrival of my first child in July won't change this. It can't.

Ok? Your turn.... and.... GO!

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Roper — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:03:01 GMT

No doubt low-income people will be hit harder -- that's important to point out. But if the middle and high income folks reined in their consumption, the disparity between rich and poor wouldn't be so great.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Tracey — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:58:40 GMT

I'm not going to rant about the elitist attitude of the OP. I just have to say that I feel sorry for the CNAs (certified nursing assistants) in our company who drive many miles every day to bathe and change sheets and provide much needed comfort to the terminally ill.

Our company has never paid fair mileage, but even so, the CNAs are the lowest paid employees of our hospice team, yet they are the most appreciated and needed.

I urge the OP to read "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Rachael Brownell (Redsy) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:56:09 GMT

RElax people! Most families feel the pinch of higher gas prices... I'm not trying to suggest that poverty or working poor families should be an afterthought or don't matter... and I'm not talking about people who can't pay their heating bills... I'm talking about people with Hummers and huge $$$ SUVs paying the piper.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Manjari — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:47:53 GMT

This post is really obnoxious. The price of gas right now is actually really difficult for some families, and ours is one of them. My husband and I never even had a car before we had kids. I walked or rode public, and he liked to skateboard or ride his bike. Now he has a job that is an hour away from where we live. There is literally no way to get there on public transportation. He has to drive. We even tried to move closer to where he works, but we were unsuccessful in selling our house. The cost of gas and food right now is really hurting us. We also live in Philadelphia, not "the beautiful Pacific Northwest." It gets really fucking cold here. We had trouble affording our heating bill this past winter. Still, we have it easy compared to a lot of other families in this country (people who don't have the luxury of smug self-righteousness).

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

getoveryourself — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:34:49 GMT

I love how "people earning low wages" are just an after thought for you. They are the ones that are going to suffer the most, but it is probably all their own fault as they really need to learn to live even more smaller than they already do. Extravagant bastards!

For example, yep, that working poor single mom living in rural New Mexico, struggling to survive on minumum wage should be biking 30 miles each way to drop her kids off at day care and get to work in 110 plus degree heat in the summer.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Cassie — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:53:21 GMT

My hope is that the auto makers will respond to demand and finally market cars with high fuel efficiency. 24 miles to the the gallon? That is ridiculous. They can do 60 mpg but they wont because gas was cheap and people paid for it. Now if demand decreases maybe they will finally give us a decent vehicle. Biking and walking is great but most of the country cant do it especially with more than one child along. There are still a lot of people living the rural and suburban areas of this nation and I just dont see them biking to work in a blizzard with two kids strapped on the back.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Treespeed — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:32:51 GMT

Expesnsive gas affects everyone and the prices of everything. Unless you bike everywhere, grow your own food, and live off the grid this will affect you so folks shouldn't get too smug.

re: Greenhouse: Why $4 Gas is a Good Thing

Lori F. — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:19:44 GMT

I can't wait for it to get to $5/gal.