The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Aggie — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 14:05:23 GMT

For those of you who are carping on about the CF not "doing their share" to support the economic system: It is immoral to bring a soul, a sacred human life, into the world for the purpose of supporting an economic system. That's called slavery, and it's wrong. I don't owe society a future consumer/taxpayer just because my uterus functions. Human beings are more than unthinking functionaries of capitalism, and if that's why you're having kids, then you have no regard for human life.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

LG — Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:26:32 GMT

I'm not really on one "side" or the other. I have been married 3 years and do not have children, lean against having them, but am not sure. I think it would be handy if we all took a deep breath and remembered that this issue isn't this polarizing in real life. The internet exaggerates everything. At least, I would hope no one is calling someone a breeder or selfish little sh!t in person. Are there people out there who think I'm a less valuable member of society because I have not reproduced? Apparently at least one. But I'm very grateful for those who keep it to themselves. Honestly, I don't care what other people think. But I've been very lucky. People I come across are very understanding and my husband's company has let him leave work early when we had cat emergencies. It is a little annoying that moms get 5mos paid, money everyone at the company gets ripped out of their paycheck, but only the moms ever get back. BUT, allowing my husband time off for the cat (which was more for me because I was freaking out), to take care of elderly parents if necessary, evens things out. I think what childfree persons want is not preferential treatment, but equal treatment. They want their ailing parents to be as important as your sick child. And given that many parents seem to think that their children will be taking care of them in their old age, I would think this would be a universal concern. How do you expect your kids to do it when their employers are telling them what the childfree are told today-- parents don't matter, just kids?

I suppose logic is a fleeting concept. I do have one burning question though. Why is it always our KIDS who are going to make the world a better place, figure out how to solve the population crisis (extra points if you figure out the irony to this one), cure cancer? Why aren't WE doing something about it? And how do you expect your kids to solve all the world's problems when chances are they'll just be passing the buck to THEIR kids? I think we'd be wise to one day stop romanticizing the so far unproven amazing powers of the next generation, sit down, and do something ourselves.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

bubbles76angel — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:09:14 GMT

We'd all get along if there weren't posts about how we don't get along to fan the flames. I know Patti didn't intend for such an angry response from both sides, but wow!

CFers don't want to/feel they shouldn't have kids, so what? "Breeders"/Parents have kids whether they wanted them or not (and some breeders don't act like they wanted them), so what?

This is yet another us vs. them discussion. The # of "Those people" and "you people" is appalling. Talk about a segregation.

Let's be honest CFers get more sh-- than parents in society. "Why don't you want kids" "You should have kids" It's not anyone's place to tell people what they should or should not do or, even worse, tell them what they should want.

There should be equality in the workplace, in society for all people. We don't need everyone to have kids. We don't need to have 10 kids each to make a living anymore. We just need to be accepting of everyone, regardless of race, wealth or creed.

As a parenting site, Babble should be promoting acceptance of all (in general, I think it does). This is a public site, parents, kids, dogs and cfers can read it if they want to. If you don't agree with someone, there are non-judgemental, non-inflammatory ways of addressing it. Some people were down right bitchy on both sides. Anger doesn't help bring anyone together and certainly not going to help us get along.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

amysuehere — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:35:35 GMT

(forgive the typos, I was rushing)

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

amysuehere — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:34:07 GMT

FINALLY!

AnotherMommy gets it! I quietly read through all the flaming (bad on both sides) and am SO relieved someone on the parents' side gets a portion of the frustration.

Yes, hubbers (married 20+ years, living together going on 30) and I decided at the beginning we didn't want children. That doesn't make us selfish. It makes us smart. (believe me, it was very difficult as I reached the mid-30s and our "friends" with budding families (not to mention parents) made us feel very uncomfortable about our decision.

Yes, YES, YES, AnotherMommy! The CFers are not saying those ugly comments about good parents (unfortunately the bad egg always stands out), but those parents who are inconsiderate of others.

Example - I was in the grocery store this weekend and a family with one of those huge "minivan" carts kept getting to the isle ahead, parking that beast in the middle and blocking traffice. First time, "excuse me" nicely. Second time (next row), "excuse me" not so nice (how is this row different than the last)...well, you the get pic. As we both happened to leave the store, the older boy was yelling at his father with pure hate in his eyes, hitting him violently, "I WANT ANOTHER BUDDY-BUCK!!!" This is classic of what CFers are referring to as "breeders". It's just a pity that this family stood out in my mind, because the store was filled with nice, considerate families who were attentive to where their children/carts were and understood that others also wanted to shop quickly and efficiently.

Thank you, AnotherMom, for speaking out.

P.S. - I love suburban termoil and read it regularly...so there you have it. I'm still not having children though.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Another Mommy — Sun, 11 Mar 2007 04:08:22 GMT

It finally looks like there are some decent arguments for the CF going on here thanks to Blue Mondays and electric_bonzai. Both (in my opinion) are great representatives of the childfree community, well-spoken, and make good points. Thank you for finally steering the debate in a positive and reasonable direction.

As a mom of two who strives every day to raise respectable, well-behaved, happy boys I can actually take good advice from the points made by you. Up until now I have had a negative stereotype of CF folks - I guess because I assumed all the mean spirited name-calling was targeted at all parents no matter what - but I see the distinction now.

My concern in the possibility of finding common ground (what I think the author sincerely intended, no matter how badly executed) is the education of both arguments to both sides. Because all the CF experience I had witnessed revolved around hateful name-calling and generalities, it never occured to me that most CF are simply anti-bad parenting (breeders) and pro-good parenting. Most of that can be blamed on media and bad press.

One thing is certain - if we could channel all the energy from the badly behaved CFers AND parents on the thread into something positive, say world peace and understanding and all that granola stuff, it would be a truly powerful thing!

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Liz — Sat, 10 Mar 2007 03:18:15 GMT

Just a quick response to everyone who said this is a blog for parents so we should go away...

You're talking about us. That's why we're here. I see parents leave comments all the time on CF blogs. I welcome them on my own CF blog because I'm talking about parents.

If you don't want us here, don't talk about us, and we'll have nothing to say here.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

EweneekYuppieSprog — Sat, 10 Mar 2007 02:37:52 GMT

Look, Ms. Nichols, we aren't going to get along so long as BNPs insist on calling us "freaks" and "you people", insist that our rights are subordinate to theirs, and have "visceral reactions" of hatred to our very existences just because we've decided not to have kids. Just so you know.

And please - "barren"? We co-opted that term back in the nineties. "Cheers from the always barren and never bitter" and "That's MIZ Barren Old Hag to YOU" are just two of the many ASC sig. lines I can recall right off the top of my head.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

leannza1 — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:46:10 GMT

I like children quite well. I've been told numerous times how good I am with children. I just don't want children of my own. I don't want them living with me. I want to do other things besides have children. That doesn't make me a freak. I don't even think it makes me selfish.

Parents who think all childfree people hate kids and are selfish should think of it this way: Do you really want someone having a child who doesn't want that child? All children deserve to be wanted.

Oh, and the human race is in no danger of dying out anytime soon. Besides, childfree people have to balance out people who have up numerous children (like the Duggars in Arkansas--she's pregnant with her 17th).

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

BlueMondays — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:21:41 GMT

The existence of CF people is no more threatening to parents than happy gay couples are threatening to married heterosexuals. The existence of that which is DIFFERENT is not a THREAT. You MUST make that distinction and get past that prejudice if you want both parents and the childfree to "get along" according to your stated wishes, Ms. Nichols. You need only scroll up if you need proof of the animosity that prejudice brings.

There is more than enough world for all of us. You, as a parent, actually have MORE of a responsibility to get past your own inherent, visceral prejudices against people different from yourself, lest you teach them to your children and increase the sum total of pain and hatred in the world.

Also, I don't know a single CF person (including myself) who HATES good parents. I don't know a single CF person who (seriously) wants the whole human race to die out. Fact is, good parenting and well-brought-up kids shine like a beacon in this haphazard, self-indulgent world. When I run into a genuinely GOOD kid, it warms the cockles of even my curmudgeonly heart.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

BlueMondays — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 17:22:46 GMT

Any parent who is genuinely interested in getting along with the childfree need only scroll up to Rose's twelve suggestions. She's laid it all out for you on a silver platter.

I'd only add one thing to her list:

13) When you find yourself having a hard time controlling your "visceral reaction to a group of people who are speaking out against what I have done (having kids) " - realize that you are PROJECTING your own anxieties onto people who do not deserve your hostility. None of the CF are "speaking out against having kids." They're speaking out against BAD PARENTING - there is a difference.

What you are experiencing when you decide that the CF hate the entire reproductive process and all children everywhere, based on no more than their choice not to have kids, and have that "visceral reaction," it's called a PREJUDICE.

Let's do a simple logical proof here: "X woman has no children and doesn't want them HERSELF. That means that she HATES all children and all parents, and wants them all to die."

That is a non sequitur. There is nothing in the first condition that necessarily agrees with the second.

Let's try another:

"A large group of childfree people like to get together and talk about issues relevant to themselves. That means they are speaking out AGAINST the bearing and rearing of children, and want the human race to die out."

Again - non sequitur.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

electric_bonzai — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:09:55 GMT

When it comes to the name calling - I DO think that their are SEVERAL people who need to tone it down a notch (or more) and lay off the hair trigger. And frankly I do NOT appreciate 'push-button terminology' and insults in a debate thread like this.

But I think that it needs to be acknowleged that terms like 'freaks' and 'selfish' were being used far before anyone used 'breeder' etc.

And frankly, I don't really understand the 'well we used those terms but then you came and insulted us back and that's worse' argument I saw earlier. An insult is an insult.

I would really like to see a moratorium on ANY name calling from EITHER side. It really bothers me to see it, because when it is used in a debate like this it almost always completely obscures the good point (if any) the writer was making OR seems to have been used as a knee jerk response in place of making a good point and prevents the 'opponent' from considering the argument on its own merits and spurs THEM to a nastry knee jerk response, making a nasty fight out of a decent debate.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

electric_bonzai — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:06:36 GMT

Actually - *technically* you DON'T enter the uterus in sex (I don't THINK - its not really in my experience) unless something REALLY weird is going on - so (I think) the only thing entering the uterus is gonna be sperm or eggs and either one is something to beavoided ifg you are CF.

I don't GET the 'selfish argument being leveled at CFers.

People may say 'well we never denied that as parents we are slefish/sel-interested too', BUT you didn't SAY that either. You just started off with that whole 'CFers are selfishv -look at all the trivial things they prefer to having kids' thing.

In my experience, when people start an argument with "you're SELFISH", they very rarely mean "you're selfish, I'm selfish, everyone is selfish" unless they overtly say that in the first place. Therefore, even if you do not mean it that way, It normally comes across as an insult.

I simply do not understand the negative judgemtn of someone preferring doing the things that make them happy over doing somehting htey don't want to do anyway.

Just because one person gets a lot of pleasure from being a parent and feel called to that, does not mean that they have the right to judge someone else who gets a huge amount of pleasure from fishing or from computer games and feels a call to that. Different people's realities are simply different.

And I really don't get why people call it selfish for someone to prefer the so-called 'trivial' things to having a child. So what if someone doesn't have a kid because it is not worth it to them to spend the time, energy, career, sleep, free time, money etc on a child.

It is not worth it to ME to spend any of those things on going into medical school to become a doctor, or into a religious order to become a nun, or in being a horse rancher in Nevada or a lawyer in New York.

But no-one calls me 'selfish' for making THOSE decisions on those basi. If I do not have an interest in having children why should that decision be any different because it is somehting someone ELSE feels to be the most important thing they did in THEIR life. I am not judging THAT - becauue I realize that nearly everyone is different in any way.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Mytrejur — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:25:26 GMT

The uterus graphic joke is the sort of thing that would indeed be funny on a *CF* board or blog.

It's rude when it turns up on a parenting blog, especially alongside a lot of "The lady doth protest too much" assertions that she's SOOOO okay with childfreedom.

Kind of like it's okay for black guys to call each other "niggah," but not okay for anybody else.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Curious — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:07:16 GMT

Patti,

Since you write (and I use the term "write" very loosely here) FOR babble.com, I think my question is absolutely germaine. But I think my answer hits a little too close to the truth. Maybe that's why you didn't want to answer it in the first place.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Patti — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 20:53:27 GMT

The graphic originated from a childfree person's blog, as credited above.

The uterus graphic above is more appropriate for breeders

Will — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 20:47:27 GMT

How can I say what I'm about to say delicately? Hmm. Let's just say I've entered a fair number of vaginal canals as a straight CF male. I think I speak for most CFers in that they've had the same experience.

If anything, the words over the uterus should say "do not exit" if it refers to CF people. But of course you guys probably equate sex with pregnancy and think that the only purpose of sex is to breed.

So how does the graphic really apply breeders? We all know about the frequency of breeder sex. Let's just say that "do no enter" is more reflective of them.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Will — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 20:36:57 GMT

So he wants the benefits of a CF life with a kid or two. He feels he needs to choose one over another but is trying desperately to reconcile both.

What a ringing endorsement of parenting!

Thank goodness, I don't have to face that dilemma.

"I wasn't really reluctant for the responsibility, the diapers or the sort of day-to-day workings of a parent," the 36-year-old Pollack said in an online interview. "What I didn't want to give up was the sort of cultural trappings of my life before having a kid — the music, the movies, the video games, the pop-culture that I'd been immersed in since I was a kid."

Apparently, he is not alone in wondering if taking an occasional break from his PlayStation 3 is way too high a price to pay for being a dad. New York magazine ran a cover story about "hipster dads, " defined in a recent USA Today article as "the guy who hasn't worn a suit since his wedding and listens to the same music as the college kid who babysits his tots." It envisioned hipster dads — and their hipster heirs — wearing matching Black Sabbath T-shirts. And an online magazine called Babble is aimed at "the new urban parent."

"There is a new generation of parents who are interested in taking their existing lifestyle, sense of self and priorities into parenting, as opposed to checking them at the parenthood door," says Julia Beck, the founder of a "consultancy" that serves expectant and new parents."

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Shari — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 20:28:43 GMT

"MAYBE HER PETS ARE HEALTHY?! BUT YOU NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT. WAY TO JUDGE."

First of all, no need to shout. If you read her post, she clearly stated that she does NOT put her pets' health on the same level as her kids. And if her pets NEED to go to the vet, she would only take them on her day off or vacation day.

So my question to her is, what if her pets get sick on a workday? What then? Do the poor things suffer and die?

Obviously her pets ARE healthy, because she clearly doesn't realize that pets don't get sick on a schedule, anymore than a child does.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Patti — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:56:19 GMT

Hi, Curious.

I'll be happy to address anything specific to my original piece or to any other comments I've made in this discussion. Any other approach would only further the unhealthier aspects of this dialogue.

Thanks.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Curious — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:48:04 GMT

Patti,

I'm still waiting on that "new urban parent" definition.

Since it is likely going to be a loooong wait for an answer, I did a little research.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/oh/story/opinions/columns/2007/02/20/ddn022007lifedl.html

Here's a snippet:

""I wasn't really reluctant for the responsibility, the diapers or the sort of day-to-day workings of a parent," the 36-year-old Pollack said in an online interview. "What I didn't want to give up was the sort of cultural trappings of my life before having a kid — the music, the movies, the video games, the pop-culture that I'd been immersed in since I was a kid."

---end quote

This article highlights just how selfish the "new urban parent" really is. They don't want to change their lifestyle, rather, they want to incorporate their child into that existing lifestyle, even if it means inconveniencing everyone else.

That mindset is the pinnacle of selfishness.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Brea — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:14:40 GMT

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along? [link]

I can't believe nobody else picked up on this little gem:

"And I have three dogs and a cat. I love them and care for them. But I am not so cavalier as to equate their well being on the same level as the health and well being of a child. When they need to go to the vet or the groomers I take vacation days or go on my days off, just like the rest of the world."

So if your animals get sick on a workday, you would let them suffer or DIE instead of missing work to take them to the vet?

I have missed a total of two workdays in my 20+ years or working, due to medical emergencies for my pets. In both cases my employer was compassionate and understanding about it.

It could have easily gone the other way, and I realize that. But you know what, if my animals need to go to the vet THEY ARE GOING. They are living things that need care just like humans. And their illnesses do not always fall on "vacation days or days off" either, anymore than a child's illnesses do.

Please do the world a favor and don't get anymore pets.

Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:43 PM by Shari

MAYBE HER PETS ARE HEALTHY?! BUT YOU NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT. WAY TO JUDGE.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

CF for life — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:11:57 GMT

For the people so upset at the use of the word BREEDER, it should be noted that BABBLE has a column that is named NOTES FROM A NON-BREEDER so before you start yelling at the CF, you should read your own board.

And for all of the parents spending so much time screaming at the CF who were essentially invited to comment on this piece since the word CHILDFREE is in the title, don't you have children to look after? Where are your kids while you're online screaming at us, hmm???

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Curious — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:43:42 GMT

Patti,

Could you please define for the benefit of everyone here who may not know, just what exactly is a "new urban parent". I'd really appreciate a consise explanation of that label.

re: The ChildFree Movement: Can't We All Just Get Along?

Melissa — Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:42:20 GMT

spartic99,

I think in order for us all to get along and be a little more understanding you will first need to learn the difference between childFREE and childLESS. They are quite different. Obviously you using the word "barren" and intertwining the words childfree and childless together will not help your cause.

I can also tell you that you wouldn't have the guts to say half of the things you said on this post while standing around a watercooler. It's much easier to be a hateful self-absorbed person on the internet rather than face to face.