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I thought most of what you said was reasonable (although I concede I was the let-the-kid-win-sometimes parent, my husband is the tough-love parent), but one thing caught my attention. You can't stand to throw a game of *Candyland*? Candyland is entirely deterministic; there's no "earned victory" there, no lesson to be learned except, perhaps, that life is pain. Unfortunately these attributes also make it hard to cheat at, but I feel no shame at all for making the slough of despond that is Candyland slightly less desperate by stacking the deck. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that is worse than playing Candyland is winning Candyland.
posted by : Elizabeth Reid on 4/16/2009 at 9:52 AM Flag For Abuse
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Yikes, no wonder the kid cheers when he finds out she's not going someplace with them.
Expecting a 4 year old to understand why this woman who lives with his dad doesn't act like a mom to him is unrealistic and cruel. If she doesn't want to be a parent, she shouldn't live with a man who has part-time custody.
posted by : poorkid on 4/16/2009 at 10:32 AM Flag For Abuse
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My Italian grandmother NEVER let me win at anything when I was a kid~21 She~27d cheat to win~2c too~2c just like she did with adults. But she was the most fun person to play games with. Kids don~27t need to be lied to in order to have fun...~3cbr /~3e
posted by : mangia on 4/16/2009 at 10:38 AM Flag For Abuse
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In the world of soccer game "everybody wins friendship trophies", I love this. Kids aren't dumb.
posted by : SarahG5 on 4/16/2009 at 1:35 PM Flag For Abuse
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I agree with "poorkid." Geez, lady. Lighten up! I wouldn't want to hang out with you either.
posted by : What a meanie on 4/16/2009 at 1:35 PM Flag For Abuse
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Huh. I don't let my children win at games, but I don't interfere with their father's process, either (i.e. commenting from the couch about their game.) As for cheering when the he gets daddy alone time? Good for Noah! Frankly Alyssa sounds like she's about four years old.
posted by : Bizarro on 4/16/2009 at 1:37 PM Flag For Abuse
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I agree with the post. Too many times the kids all "win" when clearly someone lost. Kids are smart and know better. And better to prepare them now that they don't always win than when they don't get into the college that they want.
posted by : Kids are smart on 4/16/2009 at 1:38 PM Flag For Abuse
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I agree with the writer and actually, I think the writer has set up a good situation at their home -- one parent can be soft and the other can be tough. That's balanced in my eyes. When our son started playing chess we thought we'd do the halfsies with the game.... we'd let him win once in awhile to keep his confidence up. But one day he played chess with his uncle and his uncle crushed him like a bug. Like a bug! There were a lot of tears, but it was an important learning moment about being a good sport, getting "over it", and learning from your opponent.
We also made it an inside joke that we'd practice and practice and practice so that one day he could crush his uncle back. Every time he learns a new strategy he wickedly cackles to himself, "ha ha ha, I bet Uncle D doesn't know THIS move... I'm going to crush him!" I mean honestly, isn't this why we play games?! So we can get really good and beat a worthy opponent? What's the point of playing an easy game? (Dude that's Candyland...)
posted by : lora ma on 4/16/2009 at 2:18 PM Flag For Abuse
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With very young kids, sometimes in my family we arrange for them to win occasionally so they don't get too discouraged. However, we never allow them to cheat. And often they win, because when the game is too difficult for a little kid to be patient throughout, we team them up with an adult. I'm not a big fan of competitive spirit though. Especially with games. For me, competition drains the fun from games. If the point is winning, why play? Why not just knock each other down then you have a clear winner? I've always thought the point of playing a game was to have fun together.
posted by : Marj on 4/16/2009 at 2:47 PM Flag For Abuse
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I agree that little kids should not be allowed to win at every game; they need to know what it is to be beaten and then to work hard to be the victor the next time. There should be a balance at the young age of 4-5 in my opinion. Our 4 year old son who wants to win Memory (he does this without any help regularly, demonstrating the fact that I spent too much time partying in college) and Mario Kart everytime he plays. He wants to be the first one up/down the stairs to our condo, etc... We let him win alot, but he also loses regularly too.
But from the tone of the article and some of the comments made by the author, basically just sounds like she doesn't like her boyfriend's son very much and isn't very nice to him. How unattractive.
No wonder he yelps with glee upon learning she's not coming on an outing.
GO NOAH!
posted by : mrb1 on 4/16/2009 at 3:00 PM Flag For Abuse
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Totally on the author's side on this. My elder son is not quite 3, so not old enough to play such games, but, for example, if we're racing, he doesn't win (unless he unintentionally got a head start). My parents didn't let me win except by legit means, and even at a young age, I though it was pathetic when other kids were intentionally "let" to win. Kids do need to learn that if you want to be good at Memory, they have to concentrate. It's a skill! Letting them win, it seems, simply teaches them that they don't have to work to be good at something. And, seriously, how demoralizing for them if they're always let to win and then someone crushes them and rubs it in! Kids are tough; losing a game of Memory shouldn't crush their soul (and if there are kids like that, then perhaps a non-competitive craft or something is in order). Winning and losing is a part of life. Get used to it.
I'd probably stack the deck in Candyland, too, just so that damn game would be over! God forbid that it ever enter our house.
posted by : ChiLaura on 4/16/2009 at 3:59 PM Flag For Abuse
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It's not a horrible notion, I suppose. I don't go hard core with my 4.5 year old, but when I win, then I win and try harder next time. Sometimes he wins - because it is a beautiful thing to see a sense of accomplishment in my son's eyes. And no one has to know I threw it other than me. What bothers me more about this article is the authors serious lack of understanding of children. Minor point, but a four year old is a preschooler, not a toddler.
Then there's this statement: "I'm also reluctant to have Noah view me as some kiss-ass lady who's playing nice in order to get cozy with his daddy."
Umm, he's four. You have been there for three years - i.e., all of his memorable life. Do you really think that a four year old understands this level of relationship from someone who has been in his life since he was one?
posted by : April C on 4/16/2009 at 6:03 PM Flag For Abuse
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I agree largely, but it depends on the game and the kid. The trouble is that with many games, the kid won't just lose, but lose by such a huge margin that it looks completely hopeless to them. Apparently, that's not a problem for Noah, so right on. But some kids will see the hopeless margin of victory and take away the reasonable lesson that it's pointless to try.
So, there's another way used by grownups in lots of games--give a straight-up handicap. In some card games, I'll let my kid play with a 7-card hand while I play with a 5-card hand. Then I can play to win and still maybe not win, and there's no deceit, but no (or less) ass-stomping. Maybe he gets three turns for every two I get, or starts the game with more pieces, or rolls an 8-sided die while I roll a 6-sided die (OK, that's limited to geeks who own 8-sided dice).
For a game to be interesting to me, there needs to be a reasonable chance of both winning and losing, so it's worth tweaking the rules to give my kid a good chance of victory.
And, OK, sometimes I just fake it and let him win. In that case, I tell myself it's just the same as playing chase--sure I could catch him in 2 seconds flat, but then it would be over, and where's the fun in that?
posted by : Timothy on 4/16/2009 at 9:20 PM Flag For Abuse
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Wow. I kind of think Babble published this in order to show us this writer's true colors. She is scary. Just terrifying, really. And it is not in the main theme (which I actually happen to agree with, by the way). Instead, sprinkled throughout this piece are little glimpses into the mean-spirited, cold person she seems to be. I hope that things improve between these two. After all, she is likely to become his stepmom as it sounds and this little boy deserves better.
posted by : ScaryStepmom on 4/16/2009 at 10:26 PM Flag For Abuse
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I have a 4 year old son, and I beat him at games all the time. No shame in that. It teaches him how to be a graceful loser, and he strives to get better at checkers and Uno. However, once in a while, I do let him win. Because, um. He's 4. Frankly, this author seems like kind of an asshole. I'd cheer if she didn't come, too. "Bad Parent," indeed. ;)
posted by : DontBeAJerk on 4/16/2009 at 11:38 PM Flag For Abuse
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For heavens sakes, he is 4 - still plenty of time for those harsh lessons that you cannot always win. I spend every afternoon playing that game with my almost 5 year old and maybe I have this all misconstrued, but I thought we were playing to a) have fun time together while little brother slept and b) so he can practice some important skills such as turn taking, remembering, paying attention etc. I do not take this opportunity to make sure he gets that competition and winning are the most important ends in activities. I must be doing it all wrong, because we even help each other out on occassion. Grow up, lady, you have far superior memory and concentration skills and heaps more practice - it would be like Sydney Crosbie taking slap shots in a game of road hockey with preschoolers. Sometimes it is just good manners and common sense to hold back on flaunting your superiority. Your petty and absurd. I wonder if you will take the same stance if and when you have your own child... Maybe it is easier taking the cold clinical approach when the child is competing with you for your boyfriends affection...
posted by : shakingmyhead on 4/17/2009 at 10:41 AM Flag For Abuse
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Seriously, what a nasty sounding woman. Hot, yes, good for a one-nighter. But around my kid with that attitude? Good god no. Totally unattractive.
posted by : comeon on 4/17/2009 at 11:51 AM Flag For Abuse
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Why is it ever a good idea to let a kid think he or she won when they really didin't? Real self-confidence and self-esteem doesn't come from a hollow victory.
posted by : Amanda B on 4/17/2009 at 12:19 PM Flag For Abuse
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I agree with the other commenters that what's disturbing about this article is not whether or not the author lets Noah win, its the tone and the exceedingly obvious emphasis on competition. Instead of viewing daddy's attention as a goal to compete for why doesn't the author learn to SHARE attention and WAIT HER TURN??
posted by : anon on 4/17/2009 at 1:06 PM Flag For Abuse
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I can definately understand both sides of the situation, but as previous readers have said, grow up!
I can understand not wanting him to think winning comes easy but he's FOUR!
I understand kids are a lot smarter than they let on, I have a 2 year old (also named Noah) going on 5. They pick up things quickly and can retain more than most adults give them credit for. But let him win maybe 1 of 5 games. But however mature, smart, or articulate your possible future step son is, he is still FOUR, so cut him a break. For not trying to be his parent, you sure sound like it.
I have never been one to tell anyone how to parent because each person parents in their own way. However, since Noah is not your kid, give him a damn break.
Soon, he's not going to want to play with you anymore if you keep acting like a 4 year old yourself. You're trying to teach him he can't win all the time, but it sounds like you need a lesson in how to lose...
posted by : xMaureenx on 4/17/2009 at 1:08 PM Flag For Abuse
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Well I completly agree with Bd Parent. I am the mother of 6 amazing kids ages 4- 20 and I never let them win unless they truely won.
We have become this feel good society where there are no losers .
What motivation is there to improve a skill if there in no challenge?
How are we to learn focus, concetration and the joy of victory well won?
Several years ago my oldest son was on a community soccar team that insituted an "everyone wins" stratgy and no cheer policies and guess what happened?
The team become stagnet..skills did not improve, attendance fell and teamwork was lost.
While the tone of the post is snarky and a lil snotty I can feel the humor in it and as a mom who has had fansties of locking children in a sound proof closet I get it!
So far I have enjoyed the 4 posat I have read and wish the writter was in my neighborhood so I had someone with common sense to hang with!
Brandy @ www.MyBirthConnection.com
posted by : HypnoMomma on 4/17/2009 at 1:28 PM Flag For Abuse
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HypnoMomma needs to learn to spell.
posted by : spellchecker on 4/17/2009 at 3:29 PM Flag For Abuse
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"HynoMomma needs to learn to spell" - hahahaha... I noticed that, too.
Many of us have said that our objection is not to her not letting the child win, but the manner in which she makes her "superiority" clear. She sounds petty, mean and immature.
And has she really integrated into the family sufficiently to say "my four year old?" If so, god help Noah. Poor child.
posted by : Bizarro on 4/17/2009 at 4:37 PM Flag For Abuse
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i'm with the writer on this. she doesn't sound smug or hateful at all. it's not as if she's screaming "boo-yah" in the kids face, she's correcting him. some of the points that you all are hanging onto are clearly written for effect and to make the piece more interesting - for an adult to read. perhaps some of you were told by your parents that you were reading well when they should've been more honest and had you spend more time on your comprehension.
posted by : chippyd on 4/17/2009 at 6:48 PM Flag For Abuse
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I don't get the writer referring to Noah as "my" four-year-old, either. He clearly doesn't like her any better than she likes him, and there's no "my" here at all. I don't blame him for cheering when dad's mean girlfriend doesn't come along on their outings. Seriously, his "smug little face"? Who talks about a toddler like that? The sort of person who can't occasionally let a four-year-old win at a game, I suppose. You do realize that the whole point of these games is to have fun together and bond... right?
posted by : Motherof3 on 4/17/2009 at 7:01 PM Flag For Abuse
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I'm going to assume that when you (Alyssa) write about this, the whole story is just coming off far colder than it actually is. I agree with the idea that kids needs to learn to lose and that kids are coddled from the small failures of childhood that will help them cope with the big ones as they get older. In game playing, I prefer to emphasize good sportsmanship whether they win or lose. Excessive bragging over a win and bad attitude when losing are what I aim to counter.
posted by : Tom Schlodder on 4/18/2009 at 12:48 AM Flag For Abuse
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This is just creepy: the "bad parent" isn't a parent at all but a live-in girlfriend who dislikes her boyfriend's child and sees their relationship as a competition. Yes, she's in a competition with a FOUR YEAR OLD, and she's going to show that kid who's the bigger, smarter, more awesome person. How impressive.
"I will let Noah take the prize in his father's attention"
Excuse me? You don't "let" the child anything, his father's attention is his birthright. This is just creepy and wrong on so many levels. I agree that allowing children to always win is ridiculous and not helpful to the child in the long run, but the person who should be teaching that lesson isn't the father's girlfriend. I can't even imagine how I would feel reading this if I were Noah's mother. His father should re-read it with close attention to the tone and hosility she displays towards this "smug" little boy. If she dislikes him this much at age four, how is she goes to feel about him at fourteen?
posted by : DIsgusted on 4/18/2009 at 1:47 AM Flag For Abuse
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I also agree with the assessment that this woman is NOT a parent. In fact, I am deeply offended as an ACTUAL MOTHER that Babble would publish this. This woman has no idea how actual mothers feel (and hopefully never will because she is clearly too immature and cold to be a mother) and to publish this is just reckless. As someone who regularly reads Babble, I am pretty disturbed by the idea that you do not bother publishing things that might help ACTUAL parents (weight loss info, etc.) but you do publish this drivel from misguided evil not-even-stepmoms who can't even write.
posted by : YUCK on 4/18/2009 at 9:48 AM Flag For Abuse
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I really hope this dad wises up and dumps this woman before she gives his poor, sweet, defenseless pre-schooler a bite of the poison apple or sends him off to live with the dwarfs. Um, seriously? Is this writer for real? I know of fairy tale stepmoms who are nicer than this.
posted by : YUCK on 4/18/2009 at 9:51 AM Flag For Abuse
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Wow. Some of you need to lighten up, you can't diagnose the entire relationship by this one short article. Disagree, but don't bash so much.
posted by : Timothy on 4/18/2009 at 9:58 PM Flag For Abuse
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This is so weird to me because many of the games that are age-appropriate for four year olds (Snakes and Ladders comes to mind) depend more on chance than skill. The emphasis is intended to be getting down on the floor with your child, teaching them the basics, having fun and sharing special time together.
When we play games (especially ones that are 'specific skill' development based, such as Memory) it has never once occurred to me to keep score.
At this age, game-playing is really all about developing new skills, having fun, creating new experiences and learning what interests children and sparks their imaginations. Anyone who's had any formal training in coaching children will tell you that, while competition is eventually an important element of sports, the foundations need to be laid first.
Competition, no doubt, is an important part of our society but there's plenty of opportunity for exposure to that later on in academics, advanced sports and everyday life, for that experience. Besides, the more emphasis we place on winning, the more children end up discouraged and sitting on the sidelines. Maybe this is the reason our childhood obesity and type 2 diabetes rates are so high? Alienate kids by telling them they are not good enough (and that is what you are telling them, because the majority of children won't be the 'winner') and you turn them off participating, perhaps for life. (Yay you, well done!)
The focus of early childhood game-playing should be carefree fun and building great memories of good times spent together. I'm pretty confident the author is not achieving this.
posted by : Voice of Reason on 4/19/2009 at 12:42 AM Flag For Abuse
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All I have to add to this is that I don't have to "let" my 5-year-old beat me at Memory. She can do that on her own. Which says more about me than my kid, trust me.
But seriously. We "let" her win when she feels like she's going to loose her shit but we don't let her win all the time. Or we stack the deck so she doesn't get clobbered at mancala, but she loses by a few stones. And we never let her cheat at anything. We do stack the deck for candyland but only so the godforsaken thing ends sooner.
Oh - and I am her mother and I can say that she does have a "smug little face" at times. Any mom who is so offended by that line is full of it.
posted by : me4 on 4/19/2009 at 11:22 PM Flag For Abuse
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I'm with Voice of Reason.
I guess my wish for us as parents is that we can learn to appreciate and interact with our children in ways that bring us all joy and closeness, rather than having to make everything a huge life lesson, worrying that we're condescending to them, etc.
I think being real with our kids is good. In the case of the author, if it comes from a really good place and a warm feeling, I think it's fine to not throw a game. But it can be an equally caring decision to throw a game now and then. (The last game I threw was at a "team building weekend" at work, actually.)
Intentions matter quite a lot over the course of an 18 year relationship... way more than whether one won or lost as a four year old.
posted by : Shan on 4/19/2009 at 11:28 PM Flag For Abuse
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Wow, no wonder the culture of children these days is "It's all about me!" Someone finally stands up to the "everybody's a winner" mentality plauging our youth, and everyone is in an uproar! Competition is a healthy part of life, and you teach your children ABSOLUTELY NOTHING by constantly allowing them to "win" and having every child be a "winner" no matter what situation. I helped my neice with her science fair project earlier in the school year, and was absolutely disgusted that the whole thing was some charade where every single child got a medal and a ribbon, no matter how little work they actually put into the project. Yes, lets continue to reward mediocrity, because that is really teaching our children something! It also shows those children that attempt to excell that no matter how hard they work, they will never be recognized above those slackers that put in a tenth of the work. In REAL LIFE there are such things as WINNERS and LOSERS, and those that put in the time, effort, and educate themselves will be WINNERS!!! I know it's just a game with a four year old, but why does he need to win for the sake of winning? Isn't it more of a triumph to actually SUCCEED at something on your own merit than to have it handed to you simply because "Aww winning will make you feel better" I don't have any children yet, but i am pregnant, and you can be darn sure that my child will know the true value of success and not this washed-out sanitized version that tells them "you win for showing up!" Yes, applaud the children that give their best effort, and recognize them, but don't let them grow up thinking that just because they showed up, they win! What happens when they apply for a job, and don't get it because they were not the best! If they go through life thinkinking that they will win no matter what, they will not learn the appropriate coping skills that will see them into adulthood, where you do NOT WIN just because you played the game. Bravo to the author for making sure her step-son has a firm grasp on reality, and will learn the value of true winning.
posted by : coloradoblue84 on 4/20/2009 at 11:39 AM Flag For Abuse
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Coloradoblue84, Sweetheart, chill...deep breath... chill..... Those pregnancy hormones are in high gear, eh? You missed the primary point of most of the messages, which was that the author's mean-spirited tone is what's objectionable, not her firm stance on not giving away the game. Speaking of winning, the author appears to be bound and determined to "win" an adult male's attention away from his son - how does this strike you? Most posters agree that it's important to not give kids a fake "win"... that it is important - as you passionately assert - that children learn that success must be earned, etc. The leap from an occasional rigged Candyland competition to science fairs is... well, irrational. Good grief, honey, take a nap!
Oh, P.S., the child is not her step-son - he is the son of her boyfriend. And based on this essay, Noah's "firm grasp on reality" looks like it will contain images of a lithe young woman who is not his mother pouting when dad says, "let's you and me go to the zoo, just the guys, son."
posted by : Bizarro on 4/20/2009 at 11:53 AM Flag For Abuse
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Maybe the boyfriend's son would like to have his dad's girlfriend around for outings like movies and sledding if she played with him in a more gentle, fair manner. As dad's girlfriend, it is really not her place to instill her "values" on this child, especially when they are not on line with the father. Playing games with a 4 year old should not be a competitive sport, it should be a time to teach him how to play better, how to win. It is true that in life we don't always win, but childhood doesn't have to be a constant lesson in this. Sometimes we win in life, especially with the help and support of other people. No one can win on their own, and being beaten down again and again, without the chance to learn and have support is disparaging and degrading for a 4 year old, for anyone. Divorce is hard on a child, it is hard on everybody, this kid does need another lesson on how hard life can be; he needs a little acceptance and tenderness. He will only continue to push this women away if he feels like she is some sort of obstacle in his life. If she wants to be a person who is important to him, she will lighten up with him, not gloat over winning against a 4 year old and let him have some moments of winning because she helped him out. She sounds like a petty childish person, who thinks life has to be unnecessarily hard, even for a 4 year old. Life is not a competition, you don't always have to lose, and some moments in childhood should be fun. Perhaps if she accepted her boyfriend's son, helped him to win, and was able to just enjoy playing a game with him, she could become more than just dad's girlfriend, and maybe dad would want to join in.
posted by : Ollies mama on 4/20/2009 at 1:31 PM Flag For Abuse
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Beautifully put, Ollies mama.
I would just like to add that there are two types of being competitive, which are related, but not the same.
One is (an individual) having a competitive nature.
Two is (as an individual or as a group) being competitive because they have the skills, abilities and temperament suitable for achieving particular tasks, be they sports, games, academics etc.
I would put forward that many children who spend a lot of time around adults who are strongly competitive by nature are precluded from becoming competitive (in the second and arguably more important way) because they never get the opportunity to develop key skills that will enable them to become competitive in the longer term. This is because, in the preschool years, when the emphasis should be fun, togetherness, sharing, taking turns and skill-development, they get turned off when it becomes clear that the 'grown up' in question is more interested in teaching age-inappropriate lessons like being a good loser (over and over again, in some cases!). This robs children of fulfilling their potential and ironically is what makes us UNcompetitive in so many arenas.
It should also be noted that a lot of the issues raised by this article are about the age-inappropriateness of the author's behaviour with her partner's son.
We play tons of games in our family and nothing makes me happier or more proud than when my four year old shrieks and jumps up and down in pure delight when his two year old sister understands something new, acquires a skill or wins a game.
I might be wrong, but the tone of the article leads me to suspect the author would think he is a loser. That's something to think about.
posted by : Voice of Reason on 4/20/2009 at 2:01 PM Flag For Abuse
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Coloradoblue, trust me, I'm with you on the culture.
I just disagree with you in how to get there. I think if we didn't have to turn everything into a Massive Big Deal, we could then allow our kids - at the RIGHT AGE - to experience failure, C grades, etc. But instead, every soccer game, every board game, every recital, is some big deal. So then of course a lot of people try to make it rewarding.
Instead, we have people turning every four year old game into a lesson the cruel world sucking. Well, that's no more accurate than winning every game, as Voice of Reason so beautifully pointed out.
If the point is to learn to play whether you win or lose, losing all the time -- at four -- is not necessarily the way to get there. As I said I think a lot depends on the context. If the context is "teach this kid a lesson!!" then I think there are problems in the relationship. Sometimes parents teach lessons. Sometimes they look at the face of a child having a bad day and they provide gentleness and love. It's neither either/or win/lose.
It can be win-win. And in the piece it seems like that might be where the "bad" in the "bad parent" is coming in.
posted by : Shan on 4/21/2009 at 8:07 AM Flag For Abuse
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"Seriously, what a nasty sounding woman. Hot, yes, good for a one-nighter. But around my kid with that attitude? Good god no. Totally unattractive."
And yet you're bringing that kind of attitude towards women around your child? That comment just makes me upset.
posted by : amalia24 on 7/3/2009 at 6:10 PM Flag For Abuse
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I rarely let my kids "win" on purpose. I actually posted this on the truuconfessions site as I had a disagreemnt with a friend about it. I got a lot of "me too's" so I know I am not alone in this thinking.
posted by : Gal73 on 8/4/2009 at 12:53 PM Flag For Abuse
