feedback for "Excerpt: The Sleep Trainer"

1. It is so important for each family to find it's own groove and I respect the struggles that go along with it.  I do have concerns around sleep training, though. In the fabulous book, Playful Parenting, author and child psychologist Lawrence Cohen asserted that he is starting to see an increasing number of adolescents in his practice, whose parents left them alone as babies to cry themselves to sleep, and are now having major sleep issues because of fears, nightmares, and worrying. 
   
   

   posted by : Emily Geizer on 6/3/2009 at 3:07 PM Flag For Abuse

2. I think that once you get past the three month mark, the longer you wait to get them in a crib, the harder it is on them, because the older they get, the more sentient and aware they are. One of the best pieces of parenting advice I ever got was from a mom of two. She said, "Move them out around three months. I waited too long with my first and would wake up to find her just staring at me. Move them out before they start to really be aware of you."
   
   My baby initially had some fierce night/day confusion and would only sleep in my arms. I was incredibly sleep deprived. I got him to sleep a cradle swing at 2 months. Then, I moved the swing into his room by 3 months. Sometime between 3 and 4 months I got him into the crib. And you know what? We didn't have to Ferberize him. He was ready for the crib on his own. Now if he cries for more than 5 minutes, we know something is wrong (gas/hunger/wet dipe/not tired) and go get him.
   
   My friend's baby has a plethora of sleep problems and at 11 months still wakes up several times a night or stays up until the wee hours of the morning. They didn't try to stop co-sleeping until the baby was 6-7 months old, old enough to understand what was going on and be unhappy about it. My poor friend hasn't gotten a full night's sleep since before she was pregnant.
   
   I know every baby is different and ymmv, but I really think many parents are doing themselves a disservice by martyring themselves in the name of cosleeping (IF cosleeping is not resulting in actual SLEEP for all family members, if it is, more power to ya). It is much easier for me to be the best mom I can be with 6-7 hours of sleep under my belt. Again, if you, your kidlets, and your spouse are all getting an agreeable amount of shuteye in the family bed, then kudos to you. But if you find that cosleeping isn't right for your family, do EVERYBODY a favor and move them into their own room around 3 months.
   

   posted by : lovemybabyandmysleep on 6/3/2009 at 3:31 PM Flag For Abuse

3.  I was literally wincing as I read this, so fresh are the memories (and scars) from 8.5 years ago when we went through this whole thing with our own Isaac. We also did Ferber (semi-successfully) with our first born, but I actually think that Marc Weissbluth's "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" offers a much better training method. It sounds harsher than Ferber - because at 4 months you let the kid go gold turkey and cry it out till they fall asleep (no interval training)- but it actually makes a lot more sense (read the book to see why; he compares the two approaches). Interestingly, Ferber isn't against co-sleeping either; provided it's done according to his method. We had MUCH better results using this with our second child and he also gives advice for sleep problems that arise in older children. The bottom line: I can't imagine NOT using sleep training with any child of mine but I have good friends who can't imagine doing it. It's a very personal decision and hinges, I think, not on how much you love your child but on how well you tolerate sleep deprivation.
   
   Delia Lloyd
   www.realdelia.com

   posted by : Delia Boylan on 6/3/2009 at 3:42 PM Flag For Abuse

4. A great excerpt, and I salute your courage in agreeing to second-serial in a place where commenters are sure to get into a rockfight over sleep training....
   

   posted by : Ferberfan on 6/3/2009 at 3:51 PM Flag For Abuse

5. you could change the names in this story and it is the story of us with child number one. I laid next to the crib holding the little guys finger for two years.  I vowed not to repeat 2.5 sleepless years with the second child.....and all of a sudden baby number two was was a year old and cosleeping with us which means everyone sleeps except me. So - I took drastic measures, moved the crib into our room and let him cry. he cried 10 min, 6 minutes, 30 seconds (how can that possibly cause long term psychological damage to a completely loved child) .....  3 nights was as long as this lasted...and for the first time in YEARS, when i was sitting in my office work i felt human and actually looked like a put together woman sans raccoon circles. my little angel was sleeping soundly! And i was a better person, mother, wife - because I was rested.

   posted by : finally sleeping on 6/3/2009 at 4:04 PM Flag For Abuse

6. I can totally sympathize.  Our son just couldn't learn any other way but to sort things out himself.  We tried all the attachment techniques and they simply didn't work.
   
   But when we finally let go and let him cry, he was sleeping through the night in TWO DAYS!!!  And he hasn't looked back.
   
   Was the first night hard?  Yes.  Was it worth it.  ABSO-f'ing-LUTELY.  Life is better for all of us. :)
   
   To each their own - the most important thing for parents to know is that every child is different, be flexible and keep trying.  No "method" is universal.

   posted by : sleepDeprivedNoMore on 6/3/2009 at 5:01 PM Flag For Abuse

7. @Emily Geizer
   
   " increasing number of adolescents in his practice, whose parents left them alone as babies to cry themselves to sleep, and are now having major sleep issues because of fears, nightmares, and worrying"
   
   The anecdotal musings of one therapist trying to correlate things in a completely unscientific way is not very convincing.

    

   Well, I assert that I am starting to see overly-neurotic and guilty parents these days thinking every little thing will "emotionally scar" children.

   posted by : sleepDeprivedNoMore on 6/3/2009 at 5:04 PM Flag For Abuse

8. I totally agree with sleepDeprivedNoMore.  I was so hard for us to sleep train (we went with the Sleep Lady's techniques found in her book) but it was better than divorce and total ruin.  I was a SAHM mom and spending my entire day trying to get my son to sleep and/or stay asleep.  By getting him on a schedule and teaching him to sleep alone we got our humanity back.  It was the biggest relief ever.  And he is so much happier because of it.  Once you learn the tell-tale signs of sleep deprivation in children (which are often very different from our own) you realize how many kids aren't getting enough rest.  Isn't it important to have a well-rested child who can grow/heal/learn?
   

   posted by : EO on 6/3/2009 at 5:39 PM Flag For Abuse

9. I guess I'm going to be the lone wolf on this one. I have 3 kids, and never sleep trained any of them in any formal way. I co-slept in the early weeks because I strongly believe that whatever gets you the most sleep is the best, and as a breastfeeding mother this is what worked for us.
   
   I kept a bassinet in my room and would usually start to 'put the baby down' in there around 8 weeks. At the first need to feed, into bed with me. Gradually the time started to lenthen, from 2 hours, to 3 and then on. Once the baby was too old for the bassinet, I'd put them in a pack and play at the end of the bed. This would get us until they were about 8-10 months. At that point, they were going usually until 3-4 am, and it made sense to be moved into a crib another room. Yes, I had to get up, but really at that point, I had a good chunk of sleep under my belt and could manage the feed. And I would keep the baby with me at that point, until it was time to get up. Gradually, the feeds stop and the baby is on their own.
   
   The loudest message from this article is that the author started to young and tried to many things (sleep alone and no feeding and go to bed by yourself). If they didn't want the baby in bed for the whole night snacking, then have mom get up, feed and put the baby someplace. But why do it all at once, then do you really know what you are fighting about?
   
   There is so much pressure to sleep train, and if your kid isn't sleeping 12 hours alone by 6 months, it must be you and what you did. Babies aren't born to be sole acts, they are built in every way shape and form to need us, their parents and caregivers. This is mostly a need of tired adults, forcing their very young children to work within a system that they deem correct.
   
   If you want to sleep train, be my guest, but don't wrap it up in 'my baby needs to learn to sooth themselve' what you need is more rest, so that is what you are enabling.

   posted by : call it what it is on 6/3/2009 at 5:41 PM Flag For Abuse

10. Wonderful! Thanks for this. It gave me some much needed laughs today after being kept up half the night by my 2.5 year old. She seems to have forgotten her sleep training this week. And at her age, it's harder to walk away.
    "One more book!" she demands. And then just when I though she was down she grabbed me forcefully, throwing me back onto her mattress and said, "Lay down!" and "I'm NOT FINISHED," that is, not finished with you, Mama! Where do you think you're going?
    Sigh.
    
    We used to stay with her until she fell asleep. And for almost two years, it wasn't an issue. In fact, since she slept for long stretches from early on, we considered ourselves lucky.
    But then it started taking up to two hours to get her to sleep. In desperation, we tried various forms of sleep training, settling finally on the cry it out (aka torture) method.
    We went through 3 months of true Ferber-style sleep training (aka, hell on earth). Contrary to what everyone told us, no, she was not sleep trained at the end of a week. Or a month. Or two. Or, for that matter, even three. We had worked up to half an hour of crying. Times three. Usually it would end with her throwing up from stress. Not fun, especially since I had morning sickness with my current pregnancy.
    Other helpful people insisted it was just a matter of sticking to routine. Right. She had the routine all right. Dinner, bath, pj's, story, song, bed, CRY! That was the routine.
    Finally in December we went abroad. We all had jet lag for a week when we came back, but somehow, miraculously, the bedtime routine worked. Not that we had done anything differently. But it worked. My theory? She just needed more time to get used to the idea.
    
    As my mother said, if there really were one best way, there wouldn't be so many books and articles about the subject.
    
    So, while I hope your happy sleeping continues, remember to keep your sense of humor when it doesn't. :)
    
    And nice to read you again after Schlepping Through the Alps.

    posted by : Imama on 6/3/2009 at 5:41 PM Flag For Abuse

11. ...and, @Emily:
    
    did the doc compare with kids that had shared a family bed? My mom coslept with me FOREVER (because I had severe night terrors as a kid) and I suffered some restless nights from anxiety, etc when I was a teenager.  Isn't it part of adolescence to experience fear and worrying as they are encountering so much new information about themselves/their lives/their worlds?
    
    I think it is good to see sleep training as something that never ends.  It is good to teach our children about routine, respecting circadian rhythms and taking care of our bodies. As our children get older, it is good to teach them coping mechanisms for anxiety such as meditative breathing, journals, wind-down periods, etc. I am always shocked at how many adults don't practice healthy sleep habits and I don't think its because their parents let them cry-it-out.
    

    posted by : EO on 6/3/2009 at 5:45 PM Flag For Abuse

12. Reading this article makes me feel so grateful that co-sleeping worked so well for all four of my children.  Sure, we had rough patches here and there, but I've never felt a martyr.  In fact, I cherish the time with them.  My kids always fussed to nurse, then fell right back to sleep beside me.  The prolactin would kick in, and I had no trouble falling back to sleep, either.  People would ask if my baby slept though the night, and my immediate thought would be, "Yes!"  I mean, certainly they wake to nurse (though, often they nurse without ever fully waking), but I have no idea when, or how often, because I would barely wake up myself.  And amusingly enough, I've found I actually become dependent on the prolactin - whenever the baby drops a night-feeding I'd find myself awake at that time anyway, next to a soundly sleeping child.
    
    I so thoroughly enjoy co-sleeping, and I feel for those who would like to, but find it just doesn't work for them.  Sleep deprivation can be insidious, and can effect every aspect of one's life, so finding something that works is vital.   Of course, I've also found that most of the challenges I've faced with my infants change in a matter of weeks, regardless of what I do!
    

    posted by : relaxedrevolutionary on 6/4/2009 at 12:29 AM Flag For Abuse

13. Why so serious everyone? Sleep training or no -- didn't anyone else find this essay effing hysterical?I laughed so hard I cried. Thank you for the wonderfully entertaining read to which I could so much relate. Made me want to buy your book.

    posted by : OHK on 6/4/2009 at 7:05 AM Flag For Abuse

14. OMG, I laughed my ass off reading this! I could SO relate! I have been there--twice!
    
    I have to say that anyone who has not dealt with a problem sleeper is in no position to judge or feel smugly superior to someone who is desperate and sleep-training. Whether your kid blissfully STTN in a crib from day one or whether your family makes the family bed work--until you've been in a long-term situation (waaaaay more than a few weeks) where you're chronically sleep-deprived  no matter what you do or try, you have no idea what you *would* do to finally get some sleep.
    
    We CIO twice now. With the first, it took weeks, with the second, it's taken MONTHS. It's grueling, yes, but better than wanting to drive off a cliff you're so sleep-deprived. Kudos to those who can live that way long-term, but this mama cannot!
    

    posted by : sleepy on 6/4/2009 at 7:43 AM Flag For Abuse

15. Oh my gosh, I laughed so much! In the midst of this now with my second baby. We're following: Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child by Marc Weissbluth. It is fantastic. I bought the book when my first was 9 months and implemented it right away and it worked like a charm. The clincher for me was when he said in the book...if your child wants to jump from a bridge and you say no and he cries would you let him? No! The same principle holds true for sleep, sleep is important to their health and it is up to the parent to make sure they get it.Those first few nights of crying were awful, but it took only three nights and there was no looking back. Really what's an hour or two of crying over a few nights in the grand scheme of things. If that affects my baby for life than we have serious issues since as a toddler he cries at the drop of a hat!
    
    We have few sleep problems now. We started following his advice right from the beginning this time and thought we've had a few problems, the sleep thing has been much better right from the get go!

    posted by : ChrisLaRocque77 on 6/4/2009 at 10:12 AM Flag For Abuse

16. Sleepy- I totally agree with you. For us, sleep training was an act of desperation. My partner and I were arguing all the time, our five month old was miserable and exhausted all the time. We were all so terribly unhappy and found ourselves often wondering what we had gotten into. We tried so many things and read so many books and in the end Ferber is what worked.
    
    He's now eleven months old and actually giggles with joy when he gets into his crib. He loves to sleep! Those four nights of crying (the first night for hours at a time) were the worst nights of my life. But I do truly believe it was worth it in the end.
    
    I do think the excerpt misrepesented Ferber a bit. Ferber doesn't say that babies should "cry themselves to sleep." He says that babies should learn to go to sleep on their own. He says that if we begin to do this as early as three months babies won't ever get to the extended crying jags that my son did. They'll form sleep associations with their nighttime routine instead of forming them with a parent's arms or  breast or  finger. Ferber also says that families should do whatever works for them. He says that if co-sleeping is what's working, then keep at it. His book is for parents who believe they have a sleep problem (hence the title, Solving Your Child's Sleep Problems). I think it's continual misrepresentations of his book (normally from people who didn't read the whole book, just read excerpts) that make this such a divisive issue.
    
    

    posted by : anonymom on 6/4/2009 at 10:20 AM Flag For Abuse

17. btw, i'm reading the rest of 'american parent' now... the rest of the book is equally or more hilarious, and equally or more provocative.

    posted by : Mom76 on 6/4/2009 at 12:38 PM Flag For Abuse

18. OHK - I agree with you! I thought it was very well written and entertaining. It is nice to read an article that while completely different from my own philosophy, was not polarizing, preachy or pedantic. And it made me want to buy the book too. (Too bad many of the comments are not in the same nature.)
    
    

    posted by : April C on 6/4/2009 at 1:27 PM Flag For Abuse

19. I've coslept with each of my four kids for the first six months, then used Ferber when switching them to a crib.  Worked nicely, we all wound up sleeping better, and so far no horrible trauma (though I suppose I should wait till they're adolescents, when I can blame every moody fear of theirs on having let them cry it out for ten minutes.)  One thing this author got a bit wrong -- Ferber says specifically not to use the cry it out method until a baby is at least six months old, because until that time babies *need* a significant portion of their nutrition to be given at night, as their tummies are still small.  Only once a baby can be expected to go through a night with one or no feedings should sleep training be attempted.  So that could be why the author's baby didn't respond well to the first attempt at sleep training, while the second attempt when he was older worked much more easily. 
    
    Honestly,  I don't think this, toilet-training, pacifier-sucking or any of the other things we parents like to be in a tizzy over will make or break our children.  Kids are pretty resilient, given a normative nurturing environment.

    posted by : Johanny on 6/4/2009 at 2:51 PM Flag For Abuse

20. I thinmk that we did CIO around 5 months or so, when my sons would wake up for an early morning feeding (4 a.m.) that was habit, not needed. For bot kids, the time they actually cried was relatively short. We actually have been blessed with great sleepers: I have no idea as to whether it is nature or nurture, and I realize that I may be eating these words when #3 comes along!
    
    For us, though, the paci was "the thing." My elder son would go to sleep with it and then constantly lose it and start crying. We would be going into our room (one bedroom apt for the first year of his life) several times a night to put the plug back in, and, frankly, it just got annoying. (Hey, we were both students and needed to study!) I heard a friend relate her tale of weaning her 2.5 y/o from his paci, and I was terrified by the fact that he was reasoning with her! E.g. "Honey, pacis are for babies, like your little sister," and he would come back with, "But I'm the baby!", in tears. I decided that that was one future situation I could kill NOW, with my son at 6 months, so, on New Year's Eve, while my husband and I watched "Rocky," our son cried for 3 hours straight before finally putting himself to sleep. It was horrible. But, I had the image in my head of what I wanted to avoid, and that, I felt was more horrible. Night two, he cried for 40 minutes; night three, something like 10; ever after, he was fine. I'm with the commenters above who said, "Whatever works for your family." My husband and I needed the time after our son went to bed and wanted to avoid a horrible paci-weaning experience later. To others it might not matter if they have to re-paci their child, or co-sleep, or nurse, or survive on little sleep. We figured out what was important to us, did what was best for us and our kid, and that was it. My sympathies are with the families who do have sleeping problems, and I wish you all the best of luck!

    posted by : ChiLaura on 6/4/2009 at 2:59 PM Flag For Abuse

21. Hilarious!!!
    
    @Call it what it is - I didn't see one post here in which someone said they were sleep training because 'my baby needs to learn to sooth themselve' (sic).  In fact, almost all of the sleep trainers owned up to finally doing it because they were exhausted!

    posted by : Nolamom on 6/4/2009 at 3:16 PM Flag For Abuse

22. Maybe part of the problem is that we don't really understand newborn and infant sleep. Babies are built to wake frequently in the early months to eat (this is why breastmilk is so easily digested). Baby and mom work together to regulate mom's milk supply and baby's nutritional needs. Is it hard? yes. Is it hard when we expect mom's to return to full time out of the home work at 6 weeks or 3 months? hello yes!
    
    but this doesn't change that babies are not meant to sleep alone and babies are meant to wake frequently. Do I sympathize with being sleep deprived? absolutely. But I also think we as a society need to readjust our expectations of young children. Sleep training before the 2nd half of the 1st year is cruel to a baby that most likely still needs to eat through the night. But we as a society do it b/c how else can we expect parents to return to work?
    
    

    posted by : angry at society on 6/4/2009 at 4:10 PM Flag For Abuse

23. @angy- I don't think sleep training and feeding a baby at night are mutually exclusive ideas. We sleep trained early... to us this meant not letting our daughter fall asleep at the breast. Instead, we put her in her crib drowsy but awake so she could learn to fall asleep on her own. If she cried at night we responded and fed her, but again, didn't let her fall asleep at the breast and put her back down awake. I don't think this was "cruel" on our part. In fact, I'm glad we did it early instead of waiting until she was old enough to know what was going on and screamed for an extended period. I don't understand why you think people who are sleep training early aren't meeting their babies needs.

    posted by : karen305 on 6/5/2009 at 8:21 AM Flag For Abuse

24. I'm not seeing too many mentions of swaddling here? We've had zero sleep issues with our son and I think swaddling has a lot to do with that. We've swaddled since Day 1 on most nights and he sleeps like a champ. He's been sleeping for 7-8 hours at a stretch since he was about five weeks old. Frequent nursing during the day also seems to make a huge difference.
    What we do: 
    1. We use a baby hammock (e.g. a bedside bassinet) for the "long stretch" of sleep between 9:30pm - 5:00am. I change him, nurse him, swaddle, bounce him to sleep on an exercise ball while our white noise machine is on loud, and then put him in the hammock for the night. Often I can skip the bouncing before bedtime, but I use it for naps and he loves it.
    2. Quick feed at 5:00am and then I bring him into our bed to co-sleep. We nurse and doze until around 8:00am, then I'm either up for the day or I  change him and nurse/doze some more until 10:00am.
    3. Two naps during the day, usually one around noon and one around dinnertime. He very reliably falls asleep using the method I mentioned above (change, nurse, swaddle, bounce, white noise, bassinet), so he gets in a couple of long naps every day unless I want to keep him up for some reason. We also sometimes do babywearing during the day and he can doze while I'm doing chores, walking the dogs, etc.
    4. Frequent feedings throughout the day. I used to find this annoying when I first started nursing, but that was because our frequent feedings would take a long time. I felt like I was always nursing. Now I give him quick snacks (less then five minutes) regularly, then a longer nursing session every two or three hours. He doesn't get hungry at night.
    5. We've been doing part-time EC since six weeks, so I can put him on his potty before he naps or goes down for the night and it keeps his diaper much drier. Sometimes he wakes soaked, but other times he's fairly dry and has a long pee on his potty after I wake him up. 
    So, eh... all the attachment parenting techniques work well for us. We do them part-time to fit our lifestyle and preferences, but they all do seem to have a remarkably postive affect on our son. He sleeps really well and I think I can attribute that both to our daytime attention and to the sleep-inducing techniques I picked up from Happiest Baby on the Block (not a plug or anything, it just worked wonderfully for us).
    
    

    posted by : honey on 6/7/2009 at 10:58 PM Flag For Abuse

25. Eh, we swaddled both of our kids tightly, early, and often and our kids were still crappy sleepers. Just sayin', what works for one, won't work for everyone. That's not to say that any and all advice isn't helpful...
    

    posted by : sleepy on 6/8/2009 at 9:28 PM Flag For Abuse

26. I laughed SO HARD reading this article.  It is written exactly how you feel in those moments of severe sleep deprivation.  And the army crawl section almost made me pee my pants I laughed so hard.  Thanks so much for the laugh and making me feel like I am not crazy for having gone through a similar turn of events.
    

    posted by : maxsmama on 6/18/2009 at 3:56 PM Flag For Abuse

27. 6 kids. never co-slept. I'm sure they're all okay. Denim (5 at the end of the month) is a little off, but I refuse to believe it's because I didn't sleep with him in the bed. lol

    I breast-fed all of them, and I worked full-time (running a business). That's what happens when you have a baby; you get no sleep.

    So I had to get up every 3 hours and pop my boob in. That's what happens when you have a baby. You're tired. You're resentful. Your husband wants to have sex. You want to kill him. At the end of it all, you still love your baby. The kid will be okay.

    I say do what works for you.
    
    

    posted by : Zicea Becks on 8/17/2009 at 11:01 PM Flag For Abuse