feedback for "Adults Only"

1. Sounds like at least your kid is well-behaved enough to sit in a cafe.  My son simply won't sit still.  I couldn't take him to a cafe or restaurant even if I was willing to take dirty looks because he would drive ME crazy.   I was one of those eye-rollers before I became a parent and I have really tried to stay true to my core belief that there IS a balance.  I can't stand when strollers take up too much space, so I rarely bring strollers indoors unless there is LOTS of room. I use our trusty backpack.  I leave indoor spaces as soon as my son starts making noise that is above the generally accepted noise-level.   At our neighborhood cafe, we simply sit outside, rain or shine.  That works for everyone because my son doesn't get bored because he gets to watch cars, trucks, buses and dogs walk by and make lots of noise.  But inside, his noise would drive me and everyone else crazy.   I feel like we've really found a good place.  It's taken some time and yes, I've sacrified the ability to go and simply "hang out" for two hours at a cafe (at least when I'm with the kid).  But that's the price we pay.   Rebecca, you say you vowed to yourself that "becoming a parent wouldn't mean becoming someone else".  Sure, you haven't become someone else.  But that doesn't mean that you won't have to make sacrifices, right?  That's the price we pay for our little guys and girls. :)

   posted by : k1 on 10/18/2007 at 1:45 PM Flag For Abuse

2. Move to Milwaukee!  Urban life here is great with kids.  Maybe you're just in the wrong city?

   posted by : avimom on 10/18/2007 at 2:00 PM Flag For Abuse

3. We live in Seattle where only 18% of the city's population is under the age of 18 - and it shows. We chose to live in the most-kid friendly in-city neighborhood (park, library, plenty of other kids) we could find so daily activities are not a problem like coffee outings with other parents. Its the going downtown where things get sketchy. City unfriendliness is not just about the play-date haters at the cafe - its the utter lack of family friendly services - where can my husband take our infant daughter to change her when downtown? At the suburban malls, every Nordstrom is blessed with a "family" bathroom. We all evolve when we become parents, and we are not the people we were before. So do we go downtown as frequently as we did before bebe? No. Do we go to the mall more? Yep. Do we still live an urban life? Sure, we do, we just make some trades for the comfort of all occassionally.
   

   posted by : akendall on 10/18/2007 at 2:10 PM Flag For Abuse

4. Interesting ... my experience with a little boy in new york has been quite different. Until recently we lived in the east village where there was a small but active community of young parents. The attitude of the single folks seemed to me to be one of bemused admiration -- little people! cool, dude. I think they would have had the same expression if I'd had a spider monkey on my shoulders. None of the restaurants opened for brunch before 10 am, but broadly speaking the neighborhood was pretty friendly.
   
   We recently moved to tribeca which is radically different -- literally 2 out of 3 adults walking down the street are pushing a stroller, or so it seems. Everyone leaves strollers outside of restaurants -- sometimes 12 at a time -- without concern about their safety ... basically the parents own the place. Strangers ask about ages and names, kids befriend each other running around coffee shops and restaurants and parks -- if it were any more kid friendly it would be creepy.
   
   

   posted by : chattydaddy on 10/18/2007 at 2:18 PM Flag For Abuse

5. keep taking your kids out -- the more practice they have at getting out, the better.  i do think los angeles is probably the least kid-friendly place i can think of.  chicago is wonderful for families!  i also agree with others that strollers are, more often than not, a nuisance.   people tend to wield them with the worst sense of entitlement.  i almost never use mine -- i use a sling and my husband uses a backback.
   

   posted by : paulahess on 10/18/2007 at 2:19 PM Flag For Abuse

6. i remember a cartoon about new york and la i saw years ago -- it had someone in LA saying "have a nice day" and thinking "f-you" and someone in new york saying "f-you" and thinking "have a nice day." I haven't spent enough time in LA to know if this is fair, but I do think it aptly describes new york -- when people have an actual opportunity to interact as peers, they turn out to be very friendly, and children provide people with that opportunity.
   
   

   posted by : chattydaddy on 10/18/2007 at 2:23 PM Flag For Abuse

7. People who roll their eyes at well-behaved (i.e., quiet, seated) children are jerks.  I've written them off as unhappy in life in general.  I have never been an eye-roller even years ago when I was a young childless single... Granted, I have always loved kids and knew I would have my own.  What does rankle me about some fellow parents is the ones who appear oblivious to their kids' disruptive behavior.  I thought I was going to have a stroke one evening at my friend's theater debut when someone let their infant wail throughout the performance.  It took a very gutsy usher (volunteer) to get the person to take the child out at the intermission... the mom was irate saying she paid for the seat, etc.  (It was NOT a children's theater... it was R-rated at least!!)   I think your last sentence is perfect - it is very important to take our children to grown-up venues (not just playgrounds) and teach them how to act appropriately.  I would never take my toddler to a five star linen cloth restaurant, of course.  But we do take the children to sit-down restaurants and teach them to keep soft voices, use napkins, etc.  I try to be very considerate with my daughter's stroller and fortunately have found our neighborhood (in Minneapolis proper) to be extraordinarly child-friendly - including the funky coffeeshops and little cafes.  Lastly, it takes consistent modeling and training to get kids to know who to behave (some more than others) but I have reached a point where I have zero anxiety about taking my older two (school aged) kids into any setting - even fancy restaurants... though we don't take them there - those are for date night.  ;-)

   posted by : BBBGMOM on 10/18/2007 at 2:26 PM Flag For Abuse

8. It's tough. I've lived in SF and Los Angeles. SF was, in my opinion, very child "unfriendly" although I was only pregnant there, no actual child. I just found LA to be unfriendly all the way around, single, married, kids, no kids. I got the hell out of there after a few years and never looked back. We're now in Atlanta and it is beyond family friendly.   A lot of the problem is you really don't understand until you have kids and in LA, many people don't. In addition, you have some "bad apples" of uncontrolled crazy children and their unattentive parents ruining the bunch.   I read SF area had some cafe/kids play places and we have one in Atlanta. Perhaps LA does...or you could open one :-)

   posted by : bboston88 on 10/18/2007 at 2:31 PM Flag For Abuse

9. This is so true - but the more we parents bring our well-behaved kids out, the more this will stop being true.  I remember one night my husband and I and a friend of ours and my son, who was about a year old, all went out to a "nice" restaurant for dinner.  The older couple near us gave us the eye as we sat down, sure we were going to ruin their meal.  But when they got up and left, they came over to us and told us that they just had to say how wonderful our son was, how well-behaved, how lucky we were, etc etc.  They admitted to having been apprehensive when we first came in, but to being pleasantly surprised.  It was wonderful - one of those times when you're like "yes, I

   posted by : superblondgirl on 10/18/2007 at 2:46 PM Flag For Abuse

10. Thank you for this article... I totally know what you're talking about! But just wait until your child is school-aged. I thought things were "unfriendly" when my babies were sitting quietly in their strollers, but in SF, things can be down right hostile towards families. Most recently, our very single and childless mayor has proposed to open up our public school playgrounds on the weekends so anyone can come in and use our facilities. He promises they'll be clean and ready for students by Monday, but we all know there will be broken glass, garbage, and maybe even some stray condoms. There is no sanctuary for families in this city and quite honestly, it's getting hard to justify living here.
    

    posted by : sfwork on 10/18/2007 at 3:17 PM Flag For Abuse

11. This article really rings true for the experiences I've had living in cities.  Since I had my first child, we have lived in San Francisco, Seattle, and LA.  My husband and I made a pact that we would never move to the suburbs, but sometimes the cost of living combined with the attitudes toward children in the places we've lived makes me wonder...
    
    One thing that was interesting about moving to LA - a lot of landlords wouldn't even rent to us because we had kids.  They would flat-out say that their apartment was not "appropriate for young children."  I can't imagine anything more kid-unfriendly, not to mention illegal, than that.
    
    

    posted by : AmyKate on 10/18/2007 at 3:44 PM Flag For Abuse

12. I think your article was great.  It wasn't angry, but got the point across.    Twice, now, I have gotten look at chain restaurants (of all places) while out with my friends, my 2 kids and their infant.  People have asked to sit away from us, because of the kids.  We heard one woman clearly make this point.  It is all fine and good, because they didn't ask me to leave, but I think they judge too quickly.  I agree that sometimes my kids act up, but I take action and don't just enjoy my meal while everyone else has to suffer by their noise.   My biggest question is what about the adults who act worse than the kids?  I have moved away from people talking to loudly on their cell phones, too drunk, etc.  However, I waited to prove themselves to be an ass, instead of a quick judgement.   I think that too many people have had an experience with the parent that wants to talk it out with their young child, indulges their kids outbursts or let's it ride out.  I like to think I am aware of other people around me, because my kids need to learn how to act out in public.  It is hard, though.  I hate when I have to leave a place because of the kids, but then again no one said it was going to be easy.

    posted by : Wendy on 10/18/2007 at 7:35 PM Flag For Abuse

13. Rebecca, come join all of us pregnant, sling-wearing, breast-feeding in public, strollers everywhere, kids meal at the vietnamese restaurant buying, take over this mother flipping town attitude carrying parents and kids in Eagle Rock!
    
    I totally agree that the kids should get out.  There was a period when my daughter was about 18 months when she was just too wiggly, and it was too exhausting, but for the most part we are back, hanging out and loving it. 
    
    (And of course I was an eye-roller and a heavy breather, too.  Karma, go figure...)
    
    
    
    

    posted by : becster on 10/19/2007 at 11:11 AM Flag For Abuse

14.   new york is the best, san francisco is utterly dismal and LA is just fine.  I have gotten nothing but love from my hometown  of Los Angeles and i really think that this is much ado about nothing.  you feel like someone is looking at you weird.  so ?   what is the big deal about that ?    there has been a time or two when i gave someone the finger or asked if they had a fucking problem or my biggest annoyance:  people not knowing how to walk on a sidewalk  or in a smallish space with strollers and small kids. assholes are a part of city living.
    

    posted by : plum on 10/19/2007 at 10:42 PM Flag For Abuse

15. We just moved from inner-city Cleveland to an outer suburb of Akron. The move was mostly based on needing to be closer to my husband's job, but another aspect of it was how incredible unworkable it was getting for us to live in the city with small kids. It wasn't so much the eye-rolling, but lots of other issues... lack of green space, a playground full of broken glass and occasional drunks, noisy drunk partiers roaming by, all the parking spaces taken up by people out on dates, petty theft -- someone stole my birdfeeder!-- deranged homeless people stumbling along, traffic, smog, etc., etc., etc. Cleveland is full of nice people and not really anti-child officially, but the school system is one of the worst in the nation, and this tends to drive away those with young families who can escape. (Remember the school voucher case? That was here.) Anyway, I've found that suburban living with children is ... honestly... heavenly. We have a huge piece of land (acres...) and yet we're ten minutes from every possible shopping venue. Fresh air, sunshine, our own play area free of people trying to have sex on the curly slide, and so on. I've been struggling with this epiphany-- the scales have fallen from my eyes-- and suddenly I get it why people leave the city. Really I loved gritty city living for decades on end, and I know that some cities are good with kids. Cleveland, in my experience, isn't one of them.
    
    
    

    posted by : cleverland on 10/19/2007 at 10:58 PM Flag For Abuse

16. We just moved from inner-city Cleveland to an outer suburb of Akron. The move was mostly based on needing to be closer to my husband's job, but another aspect of it was how incredible unworkable it was getting for us to live in the city with small kids. It wasn't so much the eye-rolling, but lots of other issues... lack of green space, a playground full of broken glass and occasional drunks, noisy drunk partiers roaming by, all the parking spaces taken up by people out on dates, petty theft -- someone stole my birdfeeder!-- deranged homeless people stumbling along, traffic, smog, etc., etc., etc. Cleveland is full of nice people and not really anti-child officially, but the school system is one of the worst in the nation, and this tends to drive away those with young families who can escape. (Remember the school voucher case? That was here.) Anyway, I've found that suburban living with children is ... honestly... heavenly. We have a huge piece of land (acres...) and yet we're ten minutes from every possible shopping venue. Fresh air, sunshine, our own play area free of people trying to have sex on the curly slide, and so on. I've been struggling with this epiphany-- the scales have fallen from my eyes-- and suddenly I get it why people leave the city. Really I loved gritty city living for decades on end, and I know that some cities are good with kids. Cleveland, in my experience, isn't one of them.
    
    http://catherine.blog-city.com/boyz_in_the_woodz.htm< target="_blank">link
    

    posted by : cleverland on 10/19/2007 at 11:08 PM Flag For Abuse

17. sorry that posted twice... "the site is experiencing an error..."
    

    posted by : cleverland on 10/19/2007 at 11:10 PM Flag For Abuse

18. I too was an eye roller and now I'm here to say...Here, here. We live in inner-city I'm also a business traveler. Even when a baby isn't with you, the world is not baby friendly. If my breast pump gets molested one more time... I did get to stick up for another new mom this week. I was on a flight and the couple in front of us had a little girl (~18 mos). During the flight the little girl began to talk and laugh -- nothing obnoxious, just laughing and talking to her parents. I made eye contact with the guy sitting next to me and he rolled his eyes and looked at me for a glance of commiseration. Instead, I said, "She has just as much a right to make noise as you do." Needless to say, he and I didn't talk for the rest of the flight.

    posted by : bowie1977 on 10/21/2007 at 9:29 AM Flag For Abuse

19. Not sure why that posted wrong. Here's take two. I too was an eye roller and now I'm here to say...Here, here. We live in inner-city Houston and we face the same problem. My pet peeve has become places that put on a front of being "community-friendly," but only have one high chair. I guess babies aren't part of the community. I'm also a business traveler. Even when a baby isn't with you, the world is not baby friendly. If my breast pump gets molested one more time... I did get to stick up for another new mom this week. I was on a flight and the couple in front of us had a little girl (~18 mos). During the flight the little girl began to talk and laugh -- nothing obnoxious, just laughing and talking to her parents. I made eye contact with the guy sitting next to me and he rolled his eyes and looked at me for a glance of commiseration. Instead, I said, "She has just as much a right to make noise as you do." Needless to say, he and I didn't talk for the rest of the flight.

    posted by : bowie1977 on 10/21/2007 at 9:32 AM Flag For Abuse

20. Because they are always designed by men!

    posted by : pbr90 on 10/21/2007 at 9:37 PM Flag For Abuse

21. There is one, count-em, one, expressly child-friendly coffeehouse in the greater L.A. area that I know of -- Swork in Eagle Rock, which has a lovely little play area with toys.  This is a brilliant business idea and I don't know why more businesses haven't followed suit. 
    
    The anecdote about the wedding was telling.  I believe our society would be better off if we simply informed people, in a polite way, about what behavior is expected of them if they've made it clear that they have no idea.  I'm sure the bride and groom (and their videographer, if there was one) would have greatly appreciated someone in a nearby pew whispering to the offending parent, "you might need to take your child outside for a moment."  The minor shock of politely being asked to step outside, I think, is less to endure than an entire evening of dozens of glares and being regarded as "that horrible person with the loudmouth kid who wouldn't leave" by an entire wedding party.   Offenses like this can destroy friendships, or at least keep you off of guest lists forever.  But in our society, it seems we'd rather whisper our disapproval among the like-minded than state it clearly and politely to the offender, therefore allowing them an opportunity to adjust their behavior. 
    
    

    posted by : ljwilliamson on 10/22/2007 at 3:08 PM Flag For Abuse

22. I was an eye-roller as well, and I have to say I still feel empathy for people without children who are a bit jumpy when someone comes in with a toddler. And that is because there really are quite a few parents who don't seem to care if their child disrupts everyone else's afternoon. I try to be courteous when I bring my daughter out in public and I don't let her run around and shriek (okay, she hasn't really tried to yet, but I won't.) At the same time, I agree that we have no responsibility to apologize for someone else's bad behavior or to somehow try not to take up any space at all. If your child is well behaved then go out proudly and ignore the stink-eye.
    

    posted by : LouisaAnderson on 10/29/2007 at 10:15 PM Flag For Abuse

23. I get bothered that all of the kid activities (library hours and mommy and me) are only during the day on weekdays!!!  You know what, my kid likes to read at 6 pm and I want to go to a class with my child on a Saturday morning.  I am sorry I cannot be a stay at home mom because my family needs to eat and social workers make $15 an hour.  I love seeing kids during my work day and often go to parks to do case notes because I need the chaotic kid noise.  As they say, the grass is always greener on the other side.

    posted by : Minnesw on 8/20/2009 at 2:32 PM Flag For Abuse

24. I second [well, third] the two earlier posters- you're caffeinating on the wrong side of town.  Eagle Rock has two play-area-equipped coffee houses: Swork, as mentioned, as well as Cafe de Leche on York.  and nearby Pasadena is a dream for babies.
    
    I was an eye roller.... still am, when called for.  there are more than a few super-indulgent parents in this city who've earned it.  but we surely can't let them spoil it for the rest of us.
    

    posted by : EastSiiiiide on 9/11/2009 at 4:03 PM Flag For Abuse