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Though I'm sure publishing this judgmental, nasty piece is just another red-flag-to-the-bull Babble editorial gesture, I'm still glad you're not MY friend. Think I'll take my aesthetically offensive quilted diaper bag to a less bitchy part of the site. Cheers.
posted by : LauraLaura on 5/22/2008 at 1:19 PM Flag For Abuse
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parenthood changes people. i'm sorry you are experiencing such shock at finding out that your friends are now in a different place, one where you find it impossible to be understanding of their day-to-day coping techniques. parenting is a consuming job, and you and your friends should have had more realistic communication with you prior to their visit about the realities of being around their child. I'm sorry you find someone else's existence such a hardship, which seems to be your attitude towards their baby (and now, them, too).
posted by : flmommy on 5/22/2008 at 1:59 PM Flag For Abuse
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For someone who has a Masters degree, Berk sure didn't think this one out. If you don't like messy kids, don't invite them over. And if you don't like distracted people, don't ask parents to bring their children with them.
posted by : WSP on 5/22/2008 at 2:02 PM Flag For Abuse
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OK I disagree with those above. I have a toddler too and would never behave like that at a friends's house. Sure kids will be kids and it can be a bit crazy - but do I leave dirty dipaers on coffeetables, bicker with my husband, not apologize when my kids knocks things over, feed her on someone;s couch - um no...Their behavior is not excusable.
posted by : Happy Mom on 5/22/2008 at 2:02 PM Flag For Abuse
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I can understand why the authors were upset, but it sounds to me like there was ample cluelessness on both sides. What did the authors *think* was going to happen to an tall, tippy antique in a room with a toddler? If I had been the child's mother I would have been much more apologetic and hopefully faster at preventing any contact with my host's things, but at the same time finding it troubling that such a young child had a 'desire for more' after knocking something down betrays a startling (to me anyway) lack of grasp on what small children are like. Ditto on expecting the parents of that small child to stay up late and get drunk with you. If you found being around this kid annoying and tiring for a couple of hours, imagine a life with him.
Hints for the non-breeders: if you are inviting your breeder friends with children under five to your house, put your fragile antiques away. If you can possibly render one room child-proof do so and then conduct as much of the visit there as possible. Try to remember that your friends have 24x7 responsibility for (and, weirdly, actually love) a tiny unreasonable maniac with no instinct for self-preservation. If you act amazed that people in this situation are disheveled, distracted, and cranky, and occasionally value fashion less than functionality, you look clueless.
Hints for the breeders: when your friends without kids invite you over, remind them that toddlers are stubborn, quick and inquisitive, and that the visit will be less stressful for all if their hide their breakables. If the toddler *does* reach something, though, APOLOGIZE. Just because you're used to getting your things ruined doesn't mean everyone is. If you act amazed that people without children find their mess, noise, and non-stop demands irritating, you look clueless.
Hint for both: postpone visit until after child is in kindergarten.
posted by : diera on 5/22/2008 at 2:09 PM Flag For Abuse
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Yeah - I have to agree, child or no child you just don't talk to your hosts that way.
posted by : Trainwreck on 5/22/2008 at 2:10 PM Flag For Abuse
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Happy mom is right - the behavior of teh parents is no excusable. But neither is teh author's irritaingly superior attitude - we get it, your antique screen is more important than the kid, 18 month olds should be ableto control all thier impulses, and it's totally rude for your friends to have had a child that inconveniences you.
That's the response I had immediately - then I remembered why I rarely check Babble out anymore. They only print such drivel in hopes I'll be tempted to buy one of those overpriced rocj=kinghorses from thier sponsors. Marketing at it's best, Babble, give yourselves a pat on the back.
posted by : leebs on 5/22/2008 at 2:12 PM Flag For Abuse
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Yeah, parenting an 18 monther can be tough if the environment you are trying parent in is not conducive. Personally I would have left my kid at home and been aware that you are not in the same phase of your life. Dont worry they are still your same friends just trying to make sense of it all. Give them 2 years and they will be as good as new : )
posted by : abalicious on 5/22/2008 at 2:14 PM Flag For Abuse
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Aww I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with your friends. I hope the remainder of their stay went better! I know it's difficult when people get married, have children and take a different direction with their lives than you do.
I'm going to get some dirty looks and scowls from this, probably even some nasty messages and questions about why I'm posting anonymously... I have no account on the website and I'm not interested in one... but anyway it sounds like little Max isn't being disciplined AT ALL. Some argue that children shouldn't be disciplined until they're a certain age, but when my two started throwing fits over things was when I started smacking diapered butts and little taps on hands to let them know screaming was NOT the way to get what they wanted.
I'm probably going to have people thinking I'm bragging when I say this, but I've always been told I have well-behaved children. From the time they were toddlers, people have commented on how polite they are and how well behaved they are. I attribute it to allowing them the chance to express themselves in a way that's appropriate. Screaming is never appropriate.
I would have probably had some angry friends after those first few hours. And they should have NEVER said "we'll go to bed soon and you can clean up" that's horrible! Just please keep in mind that not all of your friends who decide to have a child will be like that. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with your friends :(
Michele
posted by : Michele1974 on 5/22/2008 at 2:20 PM Flag For Abuse
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Before my husband I were married and had our offspring, we had friends who were AFRAID to come over lest their little ones broke something or knocked something over (the cat maybe?). We were both amused and tickled that they remembered what it was like before kids and appreciated their honestly. Needless to say, after a bit of persuasion, we got our friends to visit, kids in tow and we never had an issue. Part of the reason, parents parenting their kids no matter how tired they are.
Next time you want to get together with these friends, make it an adult event. Parents need a break from their kids to enjoy adult conversation without hearing "mama!" every three seconds. You might actually get your friends back and realize that deep down, they're still the same people they were before baby.
posted by : mamaof2 on 5/22/2008 at 2:53 PM Flag For Abuse
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I'm sure this is all meant to be comedy, right? So I wouldn't take it that seriously. It's just that this particular humor is really worn out these days: it's crazy! cool friends turned into pod parents! out of control toddler! pratfalls! Yuck yuck yuck!
posted by : CDG on 5/22/2008 at 2:56 PM Flag For Abuse
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People, this is pure fiction.
Here's Babble.com once again pitting extreme caricatures and blanket stereotypes against one another to generate low-quality, defensive discussion. It's page views, right? And lord knows they need the advertisers of over-priced organic t-shirts and European baby furniture. :)
posted by : k1 on 5/22/2008 at 3:41 PM Flag For Abuse
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I don't think parent-hood changed your friends- I think they were always a mess and having a child only brought it out! As a mother and aunt, neither I nor my sisters would act so abhorrently at someone's home. Your friends had no manners to start with- you just notice it now that they have a child.
There are a great deal of self-centered people out there who become self-centered parents. But I do feel sorry for your friends on one count: If they come to your home and dump toys all over the place and bicker constantly, what's their home life like?
I hate to think.
posted by : DecafPlease on 5/22/2008 at 3:41 PM Flag For Abuse
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CDG: Yeah, I got that sense, too. Overplayed, rather awkwardly handled humor. And my bullshit detector goes off when reading about the diaper on the table, and his friend sighing that the house isn't child-friendly; I really doubt his guests were that rude. This guy's been reading too much David Sedaris, but he isn't the writer to pull off similar tricks. Babble editors: You can find funnier pinatas for us parents to hit with our righteousness sticks, really you can.
posted by : LauraLaura on 5/22/2008 at 3:43 PM Flag For Abuse
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Sounds like one of those stories that gets better and better the more often you tell it, especially after a few cockails. Next time, the diaper on the table will probably have poop leaking out the sides and the table will be an Eames. Sensational fiction, and not even well written.
posted by : Lise on 5/22/2008 at 3:58 PM Flag For Abuse
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From FREE TO BE YOU AND ME: "Let's hear it for babies! You were once a baby yourself!" And, I would add, some of our friends without children are the biggest fans of our children. You don't alway have to be parents to love kids.
posted by : Smartmom on 5/22/2008 at 4:01 PM Flag For Abuse
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It's too bad you all couldn't let go of your ideas of what the weekend "should" be and just relaxe and enjoy each other and the kid. Isn't that what life is about? Connecting despite our differences? And surely there are bigger things in life to write a piece about than how an 18 month old changed your friends. That's what kids do. It would have been nice to have added another element; how even through the nasty spit-up you saw how this kid enriched your friend's lives. It could have been a really fleshed out and enjoyable article. I appreciate your perspective but I didn't like reading this. I could have if you came from a more self-investigative place. It's all well and good to say the "other people" changed but there is no responsibility in that. It sounds whiny. Like an 18 month old. Oh, yeah. You got replaced by one. Now I get the whining. Someone's jealous. Now that would have been a good read.
posted by : Candace on 5/22/2008 at 4:26 PM Flag For Abuse
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A good friend would have said to his friends, "whenever you are ready for a weekend away from your child, please come to my cabin and have a great time." They would have fallen on the floor and kissed your feet in thanks. Instead, you expect them to bring their toddler (so you can be a smug "good friend") and then are appalled when they don't resume their pre-baby bahaviour. You set them up for failure and made them feel miserable. Trust me, they don't want to see you again either.
posted by : VancouverMama on 5/22/2008 at 4:33 PM Flag For Abuse
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Brett Berk is my mother-in-law: "Why don't you ever come over? Why can't I ever see that little baby? How many times do I have to invite you before you come? You don't care about me anymore because you never visit. When are you coming? DON'T TOUCH THAT! NO, DON'T EAT THERE! WHAT IS THAT ON MY COFFEE TABLE?!!!?!?!"
posted by : hi on 5/22/2008 at 4:41 PM Flag For Abuse
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Hi there Babblers. Brett Berk here, author of this piece. Thanks so much for reading, and for the lively conversation. I really appreciate it, and find it entertaining and elucidating.
As someone who has been working closely with young kids and families for over 20 years, I've learned that not every moment with children is required to have a happy ending. And this (true) story is an example of one that didn't. But that doesn't mean I don't absolutely LOVE my friends and their children. I do. We remain extremely close, I adore them all, and our lives are enriched for our ability to share our perspectives, and implicate ourselves. I wish everyone the same happy (if occasionally extremely messy) experience.
"Uncle" Brett
http://www.askgayuncle.com
posted by : Uncle Brett on 5/22/2008 at 5:27 PM Flag For Abuse
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Ok I guess (hope?) this was an exaggerated story. I agree with Decaf Please. Because who the hell acts that way and lets the kid act that way? I've been around the block a few times & have dealt with three homegrown 18-month-olds in beautiful houses, churches, concert halls, airplanes, ferries, restaurants, etc. None of mine came close to approaching this tot's egregiousness. And if one of them ever started down that path? Whisked away stat. What the heck is so hard about that? And as a parent? You have to Suck. It. Up. - you don't scold your host for not being child friendly. You don't suggest they clean up the mess after you retire. You don't feed your kid in a no-food-zone. That's bullshit. If you are not ready to take the kid out, don't. I have friends who seem "ruined" by their kids, too. In fact they became parents after we did...and I thought, cool, we'll roll with this transition very well. I've been there-done that. Yet they turned into freaky kid-centric fools, begging and pleading with the offspring to cooperate while dispensing teddygrahams and gummi bears to stave off tantrums. But the real test would be to get the friends to write their own account of the visit because this just seems too over the top.
posted by : BBBGMOM on 5/22/2008 at 5:33 PM Flag For Abuse
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I think you should all grow up - I, too, am getting very tired of these banal discussions and feigned rants of outrage. Parenting toddlers and babies is not for the faint of heart - even the spectators need to get some moxy. But this time passes, and, if you do your job properly, you can share your delightful preschooler with a willing world. I repeat, grow up and be mature adults for once.
posted by : Lisaloo on 5/22/2008 at 5:36 PM Flag For Abuse
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I think both the non-breeders and the breeders in this story leave much to be desired and should stick close to each other, since they may need each other as friends if they typically behave the way they're depicted here.
posted by : gp4avie on 5/22/2008 at 5:41 PM Flag For Abuse
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Uncle Brett- thanks for weighing in. The tone of your post above is significantly calmer than the tone of the article, leading me to believe that Babble either requested that annoyed, judgmental "I hate kids" voice or edited the article to create it. That said- I hope your friends are normally better behaved than that with their son. As many of the posters above note, if they truly behaved the way you described in the piece, they were horribly rude. And while parenting does require some myopia (I like that phrase, BTW), it does not require Coke-bottle lenses, warping the view of all except the needs of the child. I'm the mom of a 21 month old, so I can relate to where they are, but not to how they responded. I also absolutely can NOT relate to the whole "We're all going to bed with Junior" attitude. Heck, I WISH I had friends who wanted to stay up late, possibly get drunk, and party after my daughter went down! I'd be all for it!
posted by : Dwtintx on 5/22/2008 at 8:50 PM Flag For Abuse
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Oh LAWD you are hilarious. I loved it. And I've a 19-month-old. Laugh-out-loud funny. You should totally take this essay to storytelling venues. It'd be even funnier outloud.
posted by : FannyBrownRice on 5/22/2008 at 9:10 PM Flag For Abuse
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I don't see anything wrong with Uncle Brett's article. We've only just become parents having waited 15 yrs. We just didn't want children, we love kiddos, but didn't think that's where we were at. Turns out it is where we are at.
I'm tired of parents who coddle and don't discipline. Sure, a toddler is a force to be reckoned with and maybe they should have left him home, but when I read about the actions of these parents, I want to shudder! Just because I have a baby, does not mean I have to foist him onto everyone in my universe! Our friend's have a house full of antiques and the other day he said "so - don't think this is rude, but now that 'Crash' is mobile, I don't think we'll be inviting you over for a bit. Can we get together at the park instead or maybe your house?" I wasn't offended one bit! It's HIS house and HIS rules. Perfectly fine with me. If he did invite us, I'd probably decline to bring the baby anyway because I'd hate for the little man to cause any damage.
I don't like kids that are out of control. They aren't fun to be around. Will my kiddo go through time where I want to wring his neck? I'm sure. It's part of being a parent, but discipline is an essential part of parenting too. What made me sad is that these parents really are so exhausted by this whole process that they can't even work together as parents should.
posted by : Judith on 5/23/2008 at 1:37 AM Flag For Abuse
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What is with all the bitterness in these responses? I think a nerve has most definitely been hit!! Can't we all admit that we become a little/lot NUTS when we first have kids? And that our relationships with our non-parent friends suffer? I thought it was funny and refreshing and very well-written. Seems like some people around here are taking themselves way too seriously and/or are incredibly defensive.
posted by : dwood on 5/23/2008 at 1:43 AM Flag For Abuse
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Hmmm, I thought this was a pretty funny description of the gulf of life experience that opens up between friends with and without kids.
Of course the child-free friends need to deal with the reality of their friends' situation. And of course the parents with kids have to apologize for the insanity and disruption. I think the American obsession with children and family contributes to a sense of righteousness -- selfishness, basically -- that parents sometimes exhibit. The moment we have children we don't lose any and all obligation to be thoughtful to people around us.
What is most interesting to me about this piece, and the responses to it, is that clearly our generation, with our belated and erratic procreation schedule, deals with this kind of alienation between friends with babies and those without all the time. I can relate to both sides -- if i didn't have kids i would find a visiting family to be a real pain in the ass. And given that i do have kids, I find it increasingly difficult to relate to the lives of my friends without kids. The sad reality is a that a gulf of experience emerges between the two camps, and it looks to me like it's going to widen over time.
Of course we will always be able to steal away for the occasional drink or meal or afternoon adventure, and the non-breeders are always welcomed into our chaos (gotta love free babysitters), but the fact that lives diverge and lose common ground is a sad reality.
posted by : chattydaddy on 5/23/2008 at 1:15 PM Flag For Abuse
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I have a feeling that the parents were frantic and snappish because their kid is showing signs of autism. In the back of their minds they are hoping he forgets about the damn shoo-shoo, because every time he brings it up (or asks for his slow-moving train video), it reminds them of something they'd really rather not think about.
Their behavior (parents) sounds appalling. I have never placed a dirty diaper on anyone's coffee table, nor would I. If the place was really hard to navigate with a toddler I might have said so and suggested my family and I go to a hotel nearby, with plans to get together with the non-breeders the next day in a kid-friendly venue. But I get the feeling this couple was really uptight to begin with, and my hunch is it had to do with autism fears.
posted by : shrugger on 5/23/2008 at 4:21 PM Flag For Abuse
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I find it hard to believe that having a child changed their personalities or the way in which they communicate with each other. My guess is they had issues well before parenthood supposedly "ruined" them.
posted by : doubtful on 5/24/2008 at 10:53 AM Flag For Abuse
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I've read this guy's website. He's full of patronizing advice based on (apparently) 20 years of telling people what they should do with their children with the luxury of handing their kids off at the end of the day. He's also full of judgment and condescension. I do think the parents behaved badly. I could make up excuses for them, based on similar situations I've been in, but the end result is that it was just a bad idea for them to accept the invitation. On the other hand, the author sounds insufferable, like one of the many childless friends you need to let go when you have a kid, because you realize they will never ever get it. There are no winners in this story.
posted by : blerg on 5/24/2008 at 7:35 PM Flag For Abuse
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Sorry, blerg, I've read his website, and his book (highly recommended), and I don't find either condescending, patronizing or judgmental whatsoever. I think you may be falling into the overly-defensive category here. His book and his blog are full of love for children, for the process of raising children and for his friends and relatives who do so. He certainly doesn't coddle parents and he does have strong and educated opinions, which I happen to find a welcome relief. The whole point of his approach is that sometimes it takes an outside perspective (a non-parent) to point out how we go crazy as parents. If there's anything that's "insufferable" or "not getting it," its us parents who think the whole world revolves around us and who can't see what that myopia is doing to our own children. He's a trained child development expert which, sorry parents, most of us aren't. I'd rather have one of those around than someone who just sits back and nods their head and listens to me whine.
posted by : dwood on 5/25/2008 at 12:14 AM Flag For Abuse
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I guess, dwood, that you are one of the fortunate parents who have a lot of money. Which many of his ideas revolve around. It's easy to say "get babysitters" when you're not the one trying to find the money for a babysitter and the money to go out. It's easy to say "I don't listen to whining" and stay calm when you're not the one who deals with the whining 24 hours a day. There's no way I can say "I'm not defensive" and have it ring true, but I just happen to think his parenting advice is crap. And there are a ton of child devlopment experts who would agree. The thing about parenting these days is that there's absolutely no agreement from "experts" on how it should be done. I believe that parents have to decide what is best for them and their family. And a guy with no family, well, he's not the guy who I'm expecting to have very helpful insights into mine. Yeah, there's a kneejerk reactionary group who likes to rail about how parents today don't discipline their children, and we should go back to the days when kids knew they were kids and they feared their parents and moms stayed home and made jello molds and threatened "wait until your father gets home." But guess what? The kids who got the tough love? Yeah, they're the miserable screwed up adults who vowed to do differently for their own children and led to a situation where parents fear discipline will make their kids hate them because they hate their own parents. It sure does make the world better for the childfree if we browbeat our kids into shutting the hell up though, doesn't it? So hey, if he's what floats your boat, super. But I have my own "experts" and their advice works better for us.
posted by : blerg on 5/25/2008 at 8:32 PM Flag For Abuse
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Maybe it's just me but this piece cracked me up! Sounds like the author needed a little chaos in his life...me and my two-year-old would be happy to visit anytime!
posted by : Don Mills Diva on 5/26/2008 at 12:17 PM Flag For Abuse
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The best thing about this article is the comments it generated.
Perfectly said by CDG:
"Here's Babble.com once again pitting extreme caricatures and blanket stereotypes against one another to generate low-quality, defensive discussion. It's page views, right? And lord knows they need the advertisers of over-priced organic t-shirts and European baby furniture. :)"
We have lots of child-free friends. If any of them were so self-absorbed to treat us the way you treated this poor couple and their son on this particular weekend, I hope I would never have called them friends in the first place.
Young childhood is an all-consuming but very temporary time. If these people are truly your friends, can't you just deal for a few years? Get some empathy. Jeezus.
posted by : Officially Hating Babble on 5/26/2008 at 9:46 PM Flag For Abuse
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Wow, Blerg... why so unhappy? There's a HUGE difference between disciplining a child and "browbeating." Were you, by chance, browbeaten? I was raised with a very high standard in terms of public behavior and am ever grateful for it. I apply that standard to my own kids and it has paid off. Granted, until a child is nearing three years of age, all bets are off in terms of being able to negotiate and be rational. But the kid in this story was a total pill. I don't care how young a toddler the kid is, the parents should have intervened way sooner and they also should have bucked up and taken responsibility. They sounded like children themselves. I deploy the "quick whisk away" whenever a toddler becomes unruly - remove from situation. It works. Of course children whine - it's a developmental stage. Doesn't mean I have to listen to it all day. I say, "I can't understand what you are saying when you use that tone," and I get results. I cannot stand those wussy parents who plead w/ the kids to cooperate as if they are helpless on the sidelines... My friend does the, "Oh, honey, you shouldn't throw food. Oh, sweetie, can you stop? Should we get a different kind of ice cream? What's the matter?" And on and on and on. Once food becomes projectile in restaurant, my kid is done with meal. Doesn't do anyone any good if the kid gets to whine and bleat and drive everyone insane. Tough love is not a bad thing. "Tough" does not mean abuse. I've not once struck one of my children and have rarely yelled at them in anger, yet I think I do use tough love a fair amount of the time - it's about the expectations and the standards.
posted by : BBBGMOM on 5/26/2008 at 9:47 PM Flag For Abuse
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Hey people. Brett Berk again, author of this piece. Since this humorous essay seems to have generated a good deal of sincere virulence, I wanted to suggest that you take a look at my book, which is full of supreme love for--and a deep understanding of--young children, as well as hilarious stories of people (like my friends Kate and Dylan) struggling with some of the most fraught issues in contemporary parenting. You might recognize yourselves in the anecdotes, gain a fresh perspective, and perhaps even...laugh? The book is also full of REALLY great and actionable parenting advice drawn from my twenty years of experience working with literally thousands of kids as a New York City pre-school teacher, school director, and research consultant to folks like PBS, the NYC Board of Education, and the U.S. Department of Education.
Check it out!
http://www.askgayuncle.com
posted by : Uncle Brett on 5/26/2008 at 11:42 PM Flag For Abuse
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Actually, this article made me laugh...I was a little nutty with my first child. I think it was due in part that I took it all way to seriously. The world need not revolve around my children, however, I do expect to breastfeed whenever I see fit & that people not act like complete assholes just because I do have kids (I'm thinking of the folks on the international flights we take).
I'm guessing that your friends are having a bit of a crisis, either a personal one or a relationship one (or both). I know that sleep deprivation makes me bitchy & crazy. Hopefully, your friends will remember who they were & find a way to be parents without loosing all semblance of intelligent & social adults.
posted by : expat mama on 5/27/2008 at 2:05 AM Flag For Abuse
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Prior to my husband and I having our daughter, we always babyproof'd our house before our friend's with children came over. In addition to outlet covers (which are super-cheap) and a baby gate at the base of our stairs, I'd also put an old tablecloth on our coffee table and place out a few toys and coloring books for the kids to keep themselves occupied. That's part of being a GOOD HOST...not just catering to your adult guests, but to the 'younger crowd' as well. Just because you've decided not to have children, doesn't mean you should IGNORE the needs of half your guests, place judgment on people who choose to have them or be so insensitive to your friends efforts to maintain a relationship with you...
posted by : Bekk on 5/27/2008 at 7:13 AM Flag For Abuse
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This is why I don't bring my baby around any of my non-breeder friends. That is a different part of our lives. I hang out with my NB friends less than I used to, but at least when I do it's full on adult time, and *I* don't have to worry about my kid scaring people who refuse to open their minds to neohumans.
posted by : Mitraillette on 5/27/2008 at 10:16 AM Flag For Abuse
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how many stupid versions of this same article does babble have to publish before people stop getting their uptight asses all wound up about it?
is there someone at babble whose job it is to stir up some outrage every time the traffic dips?
posted by : visiting this site for the last on 5/27/2008 at 12:30 PM Flag For Abuse
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I am a child development professional and worked for 15 years dispensing advice and thinking I understood what parents experience in raising their children. I would get supremely annoyed if someone suggested I didn't REALLY understand because I wasn't a parent and would cite my years of working with children and parents as proof that I did understand. Guess what? As I approach my mid-40's with 2 children aged 4 years old and 18 months old, I have to concede - I really didn't know what the heck I was talking about until I had spent 14 months of getting up every night every 2 hours with a crying baby; 'til I had spent 16 months with a colicky/cranky/miserably uncomfortable baby; 'til I had spent over 2 years with post-partum depression; 'til I had total stangers stopping me in the grocery store to tell me what I HAD to do to cure my infant's eczema; 'til I found myself eating every word I have ever presumed to speak about what people should do to make their child sleep/behave/eat/toilet train/behave/share/cooperate, etc. The mechanisms and theories of child rearing are all too easy to espouse; I liken it to taking advice from a man about how to endure labour and delivery - I appreciate your knowledge of the female anatomy, but frankly, you don't have a clue until you've personally pushed an 8 pound person out of one of your orifices. I now believe the same about parenting. Yes, theories and techniques and ideas are great, and, in theory, they are wonderful tools to have and utilize, but none of it takes into account all of the components that make parents and children the unique, flawed and beautifully complex entities that they are. For example, I have yet to read a child-rearing professional give credence to the incredible impact sleep deprivation has on your ability to interact in a patient, calm and serene way with your screaming, demanding infant, your pouting, uncooperative and incompetent mate, your critical and omnipotent mother-in-law and your judgmental, self-centred childless friends. There are just some issues that demand personal experience before someone should presume to dispense advise, and I believe that parenting is one of them. If you haven't walked a mile in my sleep-deprived shoes, then frankly, I don't want to hear it. Oh, yes, and I won't be reading more of your blogs or books either.
posted by : Lisaloo on 5/27/2008 at 8:37 PM Flag For Abuse
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I happen to think you can understand and appreciate a child's flaws and complexities without having children. And you can give advice about how to raise children in a state of sleep deprivation without having been through every aching hour of sleep deprivation for years and years. If parenting is so rarefied and personalized a skill that a non-parent can’t offer advice on it, then I guess psychiatrists can’t be experts on schizophrenia unless they themselves have a history of schizophrenia? Doesn’t that seem, no pun intended, crazy? “Outside” perspective should be a good, healthy thing!
I think sometimes parents raise the bar on input from others, non-parents and even other parents. “You can’t understand, you don’t have it as bad as I do/did” we say in one way or another, to one person after another, piling on layer after layer of crisis/headache onto the way we talk about our experience… I’ve found that this is, more often than not, an unconscious way of staying in the problem. Closing off from the idea that there can be any solution, no matter how imperfect or incomplete. Eventually this leads to: “NO ONE can possibly understand.” The rallying cry of the self-defeating martyr.
posted by : Mamaonthemove on 5/28/2008 at 12:24 PM Flag For Abuse
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Mamaonthemove: I love you.
"Uncle" Brett
http://www.askgayuncle.com
posted by : Uncle Brett on 5/28/2008 at 1:42 PM Flag For Abuse
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yeah, if you expect a toddler to behave perfectly (even with perfect parents) you are smoking crack. They just don't do that. Lets see - first they drive their kid to your cabin (many kids that age hate car seats). Then you (accidentally of course, though the other "accidents" of the day you feel fine blaming people for) somehow attract the kid's attention to something he is obsessed with, and yes, it is normal for a kid to fixate on that kind of thing. Then the kid accidentally knocks something over (maybe you should have moved it. Maybe the parents should have been more careful, but it still could have happened) and he gets scared and his mom comforts him. So what? Who wouldn't? He is one and a half, he is not two or three or four when talking about it more might be useful - it sounds like reprimanding the kid would only be for your benefit. If you were at my house and accidentally pooped on my couch I wouldn't remind you to poop in the potty because you know that - it was an accident, or just mean - and it neither case would it help the situation. I would probably reassure you and find you some new pants. And you are an adult...
So yeah, it was intense, you miss your friends in their childless state. I am sure they would love to talk and drink but they have responsibilities. And they are likely sleep deprived since the birth of the kid (mom probably for a few months before that) and it is not the kind of sleep deprived a non-parent can really grasp - it's not "gee I woke up at three and couldn't get back to sleep" it's " I haven't slept more than two hours at a time in over a year".
Eating on your couch - some people do that. It would have been nice if they'd asked, but it's your job to let them know how to treat your house.
And why not jump in and help? Why not, if you are going to be freaky about it, ask what you can do, when they get the food out say "oh, let me help you get kiddo settled in at the table" or on arrival "we don't have a changing table, but we have a clean towel you can set up in your room to change him on and you can go ahead and throw diapers in the can next to the garage" and so on. The screen - oh shoot! I am so glad kid is ok...I will move that for now.
Or, think and feel and act how you do, but don't bitch about it - keep it to yourself. They are having a hard enough time as it is. They are still brilliant, funny and wonderful, but they are distracted and don't have the time or energy to make you the focus of their day (because their JOB is to take care of their kid, not you. You are an adult). If you offer help or just stand back you can wait until the kid is in bed and fix them a drink and laugh about how much life can change. If the mom trusts you then offer to play with the kid in the yard for a bit so she can sleep/shower/have a coffee with her husband/chill - then you would likely see a glimpse of the woman you once knew.
I go to my inlaws perfect house, all white, and I swear I wish I could take some valium or something - my kid hates it (he is very well behaved but one "touch nothing, keep still, don't talk" doesn't really mean that he will do that for the week we are there. It means my constant vigilance. And it is really hard for me when we are there because I have to take care of my kid and his needs in a house where there is no food (they shop for dinner ever evening or eat out) and we don't have a car there - so I have to string him along and feed him food we bring with us but I can't cook it because then they get offended somehow...they don't want to go anywhere, just talk, which is painful to small kids if they don't have some outlet for their energy some of the time. OR they plan a whole-day outing but don't eat all day long and act offended when I tell them that my kid needs to eat. ANd if I bring things they are offended that I don't trust them and make comments about the huge bag I now have to haul around with me.
Why do parents suck? Because they're tired. Because they have to take care of their kids needs first so their kids can act as "good" as possible so you can be comfortable. Because most of the adults without children glare at them when they show up with a kid. If you had any idea about kids, child development I think this visit might have worked out better. Kids are supposed to be dolls in this culture, it's crap. You are complaining, basically, that kid is inconvenient to you. Kids are inconvenient. They require care and attention. Yes, it is hard for everyone sometimes. Yes, you are a better parent in your head then they are in actual life. But if you had a kid, you would go see an old friend and they would judge you. They would be the better parent in their mind. If I came over with my kid, who is very polite and careful, you would still be able to mentally whip up some scenario where I suck, because it's an easy target.
posted by : ispraypooponyou on 5/28/2008 at 1:44 PM Flag For Abuse
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ispraypooponyou: I love you.
posted by : Lisaloo on 5/28/2008 at 8:09 PM Flag For Abuse
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"Uncle Brett" - I have to apologize - I have to say that after reading yet another barrage of mean-spirited comments from readers of the "Bad Parent" column, I had twinges of guilt for my comments above. I guess I have reached my saturation point for reading this site. I still think that, for me, a little credibility in the parenting department is necessary before I will pay much attention to what someone has to say about parenting, but I do believe that you have credible experience in the child development department. I liken it to the fact that I believe I have a lot to offer folks, say, on the development of children with autism but I would never dare say I had any advice for PARENTING children with autism, except to say "talk to other parents of children with autism". I may take my car to a mechanic who is a whiz under the hood, but I wouldn't take driving lessons from him if he didn't have a license. I am trying to find a way to voice my opinion without being disparaging of you or other commentators on this site - I probably have fallen short of that mission, but I hope my intent is clear to you. And perhaps I have planted a seed of respectfulness for other readers and commentators. I, for one, am going to start refraining from mean-spirited attacks and, if I have something to contribute, will try to phrase it in a more positive, respectful way, or else just stop reading this site!!!
posted by : Lisaloo on 5/30/2008 at 10:17 AM Flag For Abuse
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I liked the article, it was funny. I do have friends who have turned into pod people when they had a baby, and I have other friends who are just as fun and friendly as ever. In face one set comes to parties w/ their kid, hangs out w/ friends and kid for awhile, puts the kid down for a nap in a spare room, then continues to hang with their friends. They don't do this often, but no one calls them rude or insane when they do. It sounds like the set of parents in this story are teetering on divorce. They should not have gone for an apparently stressful visit when their marriage is in trouble. It sounds like in having a baby they have come to hate each other.
posted by : mchaos on 1/17/2009 at 8:03 PM Flag For Abuse
