feedback for "Non-Breeder 2: Not On Board"

1. I am not going to dwell on the fact that I believe your girlfriend is profoundly selfish.  Nor am I going to chide you for making the choice to stay with the one with whom you have decided to share your life.  I write because I don't understand why our generation is so hell-bent on undermining all the "traditions" of our fathers.  There is nothing inherently evil about fresh apple pie baking on a corner, wind-swept lot in a quiet neighborhood.  Nor in a mother staying at home to raise the children she had the "audacity" to bring into the world, instead of sending them off to daycare to be raised by strangers.  And there is nothing selfish in desiring offspring to raise up in your own traditions.  On the contrary, as you have stated, it is written in our blood.  I mourn for the children you may never have unless you wise up.  I hope that your significant other realizes the error of her ways.  I can't comprehend not wanting children of your own.  And may I tell you this:  your own decisions have brought you to where you are.  Depression is not in your genes: it's in your actions.  As much as my 18 month old daughter is annoying me by trying to get me to wash the "fly" off her hand, which is actually a scratch, and doing everything in her power to pry me away from the computer, I could never imagine life without her.  Your girlfriend's brother had bags under his eyes as he bounced his son on his knees because he has learned that valuable yet elusive lesson: Sacifice.  He has learned that life is not about getting, but giving.  He sits up nights rocking babies to sleep because he Loves them and is willing to give up his own life for their sake.  There is no joy in life without sacrifice, and it begins with you making the decision to be open to personal sacrifice for others' sake.  And here's more taboo: Heaven forbid I tell you to read Acts 20:35, from the Bible, which says "it is more blessed to give than receive."  There is a very good reason that book has held high esteem for centuries.  It contatins, at the very least, the wisdom of the ages, which the people of our age have rejected, along with absolute religion and dogma on every front.  Look past the rules and religiosity, and see it for what it once was: Love.  And love does not seek its own.

   Caryn

   posted by : mapgirl27 on 1/23/2007 at 10:20 AM Flag For Abuse

2. Um, wow. I'm having a hard time focusing on responding to your essay rather than to the wild-eyed mapgirl27 screed. But I'll restrict my comments to your rational yet deeply felt essay because I am, simultaneously, on both sides of the situation. I have a daughter that I love with all my heart, but the very thought of having another child makes me weak with exhaustion. I dated a man last year who made me feel very lucky indeed, but he was as set on having children as I was opposed. And that is not the first time I have lost a good man because he wanted to breed. But I have to respect my limits, because being a mom takes more out of me than can be easily replaced.

    

   When you have a child, you become willing to do just about anything for that child--sometimes to your own detriment. As a creative introvert, I need steady, solid doses of solitude and space as much as I need oxygen. I couldn't get that solitude/space as a stay-at-home mom, but neither could I deny my daughter the constant love and attention I felt she deserved. 2.5 years at home with a baby/toddler left me utterly drained and defeated. I learned that I couldn't take care of both my daughter and my former husband, and he was unwilling/unable to take care of himself. So it took its toll on my marriage too. From my perspective, when your girlfriend refuses to have children, she's choosing to keep the happiness you have together now rather than jeopardize it by deliberately introducing a life-changing event.

    

   As I near 40, I begin to wonder whether I shouldn't reconsider my position. The older my daughter gets, the more I am nourished by the massive bond of love between us, and the more pure joy she brings to my life. It's so much easier to give to her, now that it's no longer a struggle just to make it to her bedtime so I can breathe. Now that I'm experiencing the outrageously wonderful benefits of my years of effort, it's tempting to think "Well, maybe I should do this just one more time. Especially if the right man comes along..."

    

   But is the right man the one who understands and respects my desire to avoid the sheer, unrelenting dependence of a baby/young child, and the devastating toll that dependence takes on my emotional/mental health? Or is the right man the one who convinces me that our union is too sacred and our life is too beautiful to shy away from bringing it to its fullest fruition? If you can't convince your girlfriend of the latter, is she still the right one for you? Parenting raises such gut-wrenching questions, even in the fact of its absence.

   posted by : Maureen on 1/25/2007 at 5:10 PM Flag For Abuse

3. Wow, the girlfriend sounds like a winner - won't marry you, doesn't share your values regarding children - pretty low standards for "the best lover in the world."
   
   I'm seeing a recurring theme on this site - people who've insisted, despite their gut, to put 'progressive' values in effect in their lives (fathering children for lesbian friends, shacking up in uncommitted relationships into their 40s, etc.) and then are STUNNED THAT IT HAS A SHADOW SIDE! I know you're too smart and enlightened to listen to the lessons your parents and grandparents hopefully modeled for you - but maybe, just maybe these lessons have some validity after all?
   
   Oh, I forgot - advocating parenting, sacrifice and lifetime commitment is 'wild-eyed screed'. Thanks for reminding me, Maureen. (Must have been the fact that mapgirl27 referenced the Bible.) One question - wonder who's happier and more satisfied when she goes to bed at night - Maureen or mapgirl27?
   
   John, stop overthinking this stuff. You know what's right in your heart. Don't continue to prostitute yourself by staying in a relationship with a woman who doesn't share your values (your REAL values, not the stated ones) and pretending it's something else. For Pete's sake, don't adopt with her - orphaned and unwanted children are not there to stroke the egos of people too liberal to commit to one another and have children of their own. (This is coming from a father of two, one of whom is adopted.)
   
   Find a grown-up woman with values, responsibility and a golden heart, dedicate your lives to each other, work through the five or so years it takes you to fully bond with her, and then enjoy the depth and warmth that true family can be. Alternately, you can write off us traditionalists pejoratively as 'breeders' and purveyors of 'wild-eyed screed', but I suspect you're doing so because something's amiss in your own heart.
   
   Good luck.

   posted by : darktex on 1/26/2007 at 2:19 PM Flag For Abuse

4. It's really great that you've found someone that you love and that loves you enough to be honest about what they want.  And that you can make peace with yourself about letting a particular dream go, even if it hurts.
   
   I don't understand this 'selfish' nonsense.  How on earth is it selfish to adopt?  When you really think on it, it's kind of insanely selfish NOT to adopt.  There are so many children in orphanages and foster care, neglected and abused.  It's so selfish to think that our dna is so freaking special that it MUST BE SPREAD RAWR.
   
   And I suspect Maureen sleeps very well at night, the nonjudgemental people usually do.  LIFE has it's shadow side, regardless of what you do.
   
   
   
   

   posted by : Alicia on 1/26/2007 at 8:08 PM Flag For Abuse

5. I am another one of those women who, in the general public view, are too selfish and self centered. I'm in my mid-30's and in a long term relationship.  I also don't really want children and I do not believe in marriage. Humans , IMHO, were not meant to remain with one partner forever. This is not the 'nature of the beast'. I always said if for some reason I became pregnant, the child would bear my name, after all I am the one who carried it. Besides, I hate the fact that this world is so patriarchal, but thats another story.
   
   I don't want children because I do not want the responsibility. Neither parental  nor financial responsibility. Why should I lie about it? I don't want to lose my solitude and ability to do what I want when I want to a screaming fussing pink raisin. Call it immature if you want. I call it knowing what I don't want. Why in the hell should I bow down to a societal norm that states when a woman reaches a certain age, she must procreate or there is either A) a physical inability to do her so-called humanly duty, or B) some sort of psychological imbalance. It is absolutely ridiculous that anyone else would bother to spew religious dogma or any other condemning word in this situation. Like tattooing, pregnancy is a CHOICE, people!  It's not like the world will stop rotating if I choose to remain non-gravidas.
   
   I have been the target of a lot of mean natured comments these past few years. Everything from "What's so bad about children?" to the oft repeated and most aggravating, "Oh dear, what wrong with you? Can you not have kids?"  Doctors frown and warn of increased cancer risk, and women my Mother's age cluck and assure me the "clock will start ticking soon!" Screw the clock. I FIRMLY believe I was not meant to have kids.
   
   

   posted by : Giina on 1/26/2007 at 10:46 PM Flag For Abuse

6. This has nothing to do with progressive vs. traditional values, or selfish women. It is a good thing that for the first time women have the freedom to choose, and I'm certain that the human race will live on if some women decide not to have kids. The world was on the way to being overpopulated anyway.

    

   To the point- it does have everything to do with someone needlessly giving up on a dream. If Neal really feels as strongly as his article sounds about having children, then he needs to grow a backbone and break up with his current girlfriend then find one who wants to have kids too. There are plenty of fish in the sea- if he already found two women to love then he can find another, one who shares his deep desire to have children. And there are plenty of men who don't want children, so I'm sure his current girlfriend will find someone for her too. It seems to me he is just afraid- afraid to pursue his dreams and afraid to take responsibility. Nothing to be ashamed of- we all get afraid- but if he doesn't hurry up and get the courage to act soon he is going to miss out on something he obviously wants, and I bet regret it till his dying day.

   posted by : aubade on 2/6/2007 at 4:30 PM Flag For Abuse

7. This post was deeply moving and heartfelt. Wishing you peace, John.

   posted by : sarahtk on 2/8/2007 at 10:24 AM Flag For Abuse

8. Late post, but hopefully not too late.
   There's an old saying, that says the older we get, the smarter our parents were.
   Values you were instilled with are yours, and noone else's. If you feel that strong about children, then bail now. If you don't, stick with it and make damn sure you can bury these feelings or you will be festering them until it is too late.
   I love all 3 of my sons, and because I do, I drive an old crapbox, work my ass off, and do basically very little for just me. It is NOT a bad thing. My oldest just got back from a very nice school trip which whacked me financially, but the look on his face describing all that he did and experienced will never be replaced. I have friends with no kids who seem to not understand, and that's okay. I also have a best friend who loves kids so much that he still does hundreds of volunteer work with young kids and his youngest graduated college and is a teacher.
   
   If your parents values are making you feel guilty, don't have or adopt children. If your parents values are instilled the way it seems they are, find someone who wants children and is every much the perfect girl. My bet is that she is out there for you.
   
   Know Fear.......Have Twins
   OldParrothead
   
   
   

   posted by : OldParrothead on 4/23/2007 at 4:26 PM Flag For Abuse

9. as someone who loves good writing, this is one of the best pieces i've read in a long, long time. i identify very much with mr. freeman, and now find myself in a similar predicament. i have met a girl i am falling head over heels in love with; so much so that the normally difficult parts of a relationship seem to come easy to me. i compromise on things that i know in the grand scheme of things are of little consequence, and stand firm on those that are inherent to my heart. but the kids issue is the one huge roadblock standing in my way. i want them, she doesn't. and the two things that i think i've cared most about in my life stand in direct opposition to each other. if i have to choose one or the other, i will be heartbroken and emotionally bankrupt either way. perhaps its the eternal optimist in me, but something in my heart wants to believe that i can somehow show her that i have enough love in my heart to make children not only a possibility, but an instrument of extreme beauty by which she and i can leave a wondrous footprint on the world. together. i have to hope and have to believe that can happen. because i just don't know how to let go of either one.
   
   thanks for the article.

   posted by : mks on 7/25/2008 at 3:29 PM Flag For Abuse

10. Interesting article. I never wanted kids myself, until I found the love of my life - then I wanted a family with him. For me it's not about sweet baby cheeks, but about building something with him. I am not religious, but our marriage is sacred to me anyway. Your article reminded me of my sister-in-law. She does not want kids, and fears pregnancy. Her bf of six years desperately wants kids, specifically his own, biological son. Maybe he's selfish, but he's really really good for her. She is prone to anxiety and panic attacks, and he is infinitely patient and nurturing. I worry when she does not give him children, he will find someone who will. I also feel sad for them both - because I feel like when what you want out of life is fundamentally different then love may not be enough. I actually have another friend whose wife does not want kids, and he has settled for dogs. She is lucky that he is good at sacrifice.

    posted by : mchaos on 1/13/2009 at 12:43 AM Flag For Abuse