This morning I read the new essay at Babble by a dad who seems to find it adorably hip that his preschooler cusses like an episode of the Sopranos. And I just have to weigh in on this one.
Yes, I am about to judge another parent, and frankly, that feels a little terrifying given the fact that my own child recently died of a drug overdose (Comments I imagine in my head: “Who is she telling anybody anything about raising kids? Look at what happened to HER child!) Despite my reservations about sounding all judgy mcjudgerson on this, I’m going to jump in the fray anyway with my opinion because I think this obviously very clever and loving dad is SO WRONG on this one. In fact, I think he will look on this essay some years from now – when his cute, cussing 4 year old has become a 12 year old screaming “F-you!” at his sister, and think, “What the HELL was I thinking letting him believe it’s okay to use words like that?”
About a year ago, I blogged about my teenage daughter’s desire to wear what I considered skimpy shorts to school. I came down on the side of no short-shorts. Here’s what I wrote:
Teenagers are trying to find and express their identities through
their clothing. I get that, and they need some freedom to do play around
with who they are through their sartorial excesses. That shape-shifting
through fashion experimentation can be an important part of the growing
up process, and completely harmless. On the other hand, when the
identity teenegers are expressing through what they are wearing is one
that truly contradicts your values as a parent, or celebrates things
that are dangerous or illegal, or that compromises their reputation
among other kids and adults because it says something about them that
people find negative, well, then, I think parental discretion and
judgment trumps their need or right to have complete freedom of choice
in what they wear. That’s where I am with this these days, but that’s
been an evolution over time.
For some teenagers, dressing a certain way is nothing more than play acting, but for other kids, adopting, for example, a Goth fashion sensibility
actually supports and encourages their descent into depression or drug
use or other kinds of self-harm. Dressing like the guys in gangsta rap
videos might be a big nothing for some kids, who just like to play
around with costuming themselves, while for others, it’s part of a very
meaningful and dangerous interest in a criminal lifestyle. And even if
the kids themselves aren’t actually doing any of the things
commonly associated with whatever specific clothing styles they are
sporting, they can be creating an impression in their schools,
neighborhoods and communities that is unhealthy and self-defeating. As
parents, we have to protect our kids’ from their own lack of experience
and underdeveloped judgment unti l they “get” this stuff themselves.
I see the way younger children play around with language and words as very similar to the experimentation that teenagers and tweens do with clothing, hair and make-up. Young children are still learning what language is, and what power it has in the world (which is a lot). As parents, we need to be very cognizant of how new their grasp is on the nuances of language. In short, little kids often have no idea what they are talking about or what the words they are saying actually mean. And even if they understand the LITERAL meaning of a particular word or phrase, they can’t place it in a social context that imbues it with its full impact and color. Thus, as parents we have guide our kids until they can fully understand what words mean and what words can do so that they are better able to discern for themselves. Until that time, WE have to define the contexts for them; that’s how they learn. That’s our job.
For many people, curse words aren’t just rude or unmannerly, they are downright vulgar and insulting to hear. For example, if my elderly grandmother took one of her great grandchildren to the playground and heard this essayist’s four year old shouting Sh%* on his way down the slide, she would be really bothered. It would kind of ruin her time at the park, just as if she’d stepped in something foul. Of course, we usually don’t hear loud cussing in public settings because for courteous adults, the desire not to offend or insult others generally prevents them from cursing in inappropriate settings. In other words, if it’s not a setting where a polite adult would be freely using curse words, why would this guy allow his four year old to mistakenly develop the impression that it’s okay for a little boy to do it?
In his essay, the dad-writer lumps the word “hate” in with the curse word issue. But this is another one where we have to help our kids learn about the power of words and about social context. “Hate” can be a very, very powerful word, and it’s best reserved for expressive situations that are important enough to call out the big guns.In other words, the line with “hate” in it from Harry Potter that the guy was reading to his son might have been part of a scene with intense emotion and a lot at stake, whereas it would be an entirely different and inappropriate use of the word if the little boy began screaming “I hate you!” at adults when they try to get him to eat his lima beans or to take his nap mat out of his preschool cubby. Instead of parents decreeing that a word like hate is wholly allowed or disallowed, why not explain how it could be used and how it shouldn’t be used, and then hold the child to those standards to help him learn.
The same goes for curse words. If this parent really doesn’t mind his kid cussing at home, why not explain that there are words that are appropriate at home and words that are inappropriate in other, more public settings? This is an explanation that reflects the world in which the little boy will actually have to navigate as he grows out of his parents’ reach, a world in which there are times for short shorts and times for a down parka and times for a ballgown. In my view, this idea of context and boundaries and social courtesy with regard to language is something a kid really does need to learn from his parents, dammit.
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I think most parents will agree with you on this one. Sometimes I think Babble chooses to publish essays with which they know most people will disagree just to be provocative. (Sorry Babble– I’ll still read every day.)
I’m sure this article was sensationalized for more attention, but I think there was a good opportunity with it to talk about the importance of context that was missed. I wonder if the author would have the same problem with racial and ethnic slurs? I’m sure the author draws the line somewhere. It does our children a disservice not to teach them about what constitutes appropriate boundaries, in language as well as in life.
That article struck a dissonant chord in my head. You’ve perfectly articulated it.
I really appreciate your comment on that article. I am a high school teacher, and it is obvious to me that *some* parents are not teaching their children about boundaries and social context. Many of my kiddos have no idea why what they say is offensive or disrespectful or rude. Thank you for weighing in with a thoughtful opinion. I was beginning to think I was just a huge prude!
I just read that article before clicking over here. I totally agree with you, my parents were never the baby talk type and never once did they dumb down or filter their vocabulary around me, but I was also taught that there are words we just don’t use. And I don’t think I let the word hate into my regular speech until I was in high school.
You make a good point. Parenting is all about setting limits and explaining boundaries and context. A few other things really got me: First: What is up with this man’s very public devaluing of his wife’s feelings on this issue? While he is willing to “take one for the team” when his son curses at school, what about her feelings? Second, I felt like he was vicariously enjoying rebelling against the nuns at his son’s school through his son’s (largely innocent – he doesn’t actually know better yet, unlike his dad) language. And that, above all else, is unfair: making your kids the unwitting vehicles of your own issues with authority.
Since when is baby talk bad? Research shows that baby’s attend to a higher pitched voice with lots of repetition. In other words, baby talk helps babies learn to talk. Not the other way around. Just sayin.
Yes, well said. Treating a cursing preschooler so nonchalantly just reminds me of those God-forsakenly immature parents who prompt their children to say profanities just because the parents themselves think it’s funny. Though, I grant, this is not the same thing, but it’s not any better.
Thanks, Katie. Again, you are able to articulate just what I was thinking! This really strikes a chord with me this week, as our almost-3-year-old has recently adopted ‘shut up’ and some other serious sass into his vocabulary (thanks preschool!). We are struggling with how to treat his new behavior, as he obviously doesn’t know what he is saying means, he has just heard it before and is using it in what he thinks is the same context. Ah parenting!
I’m with you, Bean. Since when is baby talk bad? So many supposedly high-brow parents I know would NEVER deign to speak baby talk to their little Einsteins, but I got great joy out of it. And guess what? My daughters (now 4 and
are smart, funny, articulate little people with good vocabularies. (Who don’t swear, by the way, because we don’t swear in front of them as a rule.)
Why is baby talk so uncool? You hipster parents need to chill out!
Babble definitely takes contrarian parenting to silly levels. This is not a tenable position, letting a preschooler cuss like that. What if she cusses at school? Or at the playground? This could work against her socially, which is the opposite of what most parents are trying to achieve.
I remember being terrified that my son would start school and use the F word, the word that rhymes with duck, which he heard me use far too often in rush hour traffic. I told him NEVER to say it anywhere, it was a grownup word, like wine was a grownup drink.
I agree with you on this one. The only thing I’d like to point out, and I just happen to write about this the other day, is to not be so quick to judge swearing kids if you don’t know the family. There could be circumstances you aren’t aware of, like Tourette’s. (My post is here: http://wp.me/pzfhC-3O).
But teaching & encouraging your kids to swear? Absolutely not.
When my children were little, I didn’t censor myself much. Occasionally, they would drop the S bomb. Or worse. When they did, I would say to them, “That is not a ‘bad’ word. But there are ‘bad’ choices about when to say it.” So yes, context was very important. And they got it. Nobody outside the walls of my house ever heard them curse, and they never used the words at me or at eachother. They are now 22 and 18, and while they never use “colorful” language in front of me, I’m sure they do with their friends. I, on the other hand, remain largely uncensored. Not bragging about it, just stating it as truth.
Great essay, Katie.
I’m definitely not the baby talk type — it feels unnatural to me, and sometimes condescending when used in the wrong context (though certainly not all the time). I don’t think it’s essential to child development or language acquisition, nor do I think there’s anything wrong with it — I think it comes down to how parents feel most comfortable interacting with their kids.
I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, and I agree with much of what you said, Katie, and much of what was said here in the comments. I believe the tone of your piece is respectful, and I recognize how hard that is to do when you feel strongly about something. That said, a post like this seems to invite a certain degree of ganging up on the father who wrote the original essay, and I’m not sure how productive that ultimately is.
I know a very nice family who believes in firmer discipline (spanking) than I do and whose children are generally well-behaved. But, my skin crawls and I have to bite my tongue every time the young boy shouts, “Holy crap” in front of his parents, me, his grandparents and anyone else in earshot. They don’t even flinch. It makes me twitch. I assume he wouldn’t hesitate to do it in the classroom either. If I didn’t know him, it would cause me to assume he is a rude child from a rude family.
My ex-husband allowed our daughters to swear at his house. His thought behind it was then if they were allowed to swear, it would make them less likely TO swear.
Two weeks later and my youngest child was (apparently) cussing like a sailor at the dinner table.
A year later and it’s all stopped now. He realised his decision was inappropriate and rescinded the swearing rule at his home, however when we went through a custody modification, this was a big negative in his favour.
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. My parents didn’t make any words taboo with the philosophy that we would become bored of cussing like sailors and begin to choose more appropriate and interesting language eventually. While all four of us did go through a phase of saying things that would embarrass ANY parent and call for a mouth being washed out with soap, we did grow out of it. We have all ended up very well-spoken and intelligent people who use curse words sparingly for emphasis.
I am a cusser. I have toned it down since having my son (almost 3 now) but he has picked up some choice sayings. I don’t make a big deal out of it because of course that makes it more fun for him. I just tell him not to say it. Although when he says he doesn’t like mama or daddy when he is mad (he hasn’t picked up hate yet) I explain that it is ok to be mad but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t like us and he shouldn’t say that because it makes us feel sad.
This response is very in-line with what I was thinking. Children must be taught. Someone commented to him (agreeing with what I think) that children idolize and look up to their parents. Agreed. But to take it a step further, they LEARN from them as well. His child was allowed to swear, then that “privilege” was revoked, and now he is allowed to swear again. Oh my. The only thing he has learned from this debacle is that his parents don’t parent as a team.
On the other hand, if he wants his child to be socially unaccepted, repeatedly disciplined at school (which will effect his education), and his self-esteem to be negatively impacted by being shunned from his classmates, more power to him. My biggest concern isn’t that he would watch his child walk down that plank without stopping him. It’s his child. My concern is the “dumbing down” of what he is teaching him. Let’s be honest: shit’s translation is fecal matter. What does that have to do with stubbing a toe? How about “ouch!”? Think about what the F word and the A word REALLY MEAN. Talking about what adults do in their bedroom or someone’s back side isn’t appropriate for a four year old.
He asserts that saying “doodie” (or something like that) while his child fell would have been silly. I agree. Most children would just scream. A well-articulated one might say “Oh no!” or “Uh oh!” as if to imply that it wasn’t their intention to fall. What does that have to do with something we find in a toilet?
I remember bringing “hate” home from school and my mom flipped her lid. She explained that it’s okay to hate, but we don’t say we hate people. We can hate situations. “I hate child abuse.” I was taught that if I dislike someone so much that hate is the only word I can think of, I should walk away and not associate with that person. Good life lesson.
Cussing is first and foremost a socially unacceptable behavior that adults have a responsibility to teach children to avoid. But I also see cussing as a “tipping point,” such as Malcolm Gladwell refers to in his book of the same name. He writes in one chapter about graffiti and jaywalking in New York City. In reducing crime in NYC, city officials found that graffiti, broken windows and other vandalism were not just correlated with crime in neighborhoods, but actually had a causal effect, because they somehow gave people permission that the area was not valued, that bad behavior would be accepted there and that laws were not being enforced. Same with jaywalking — tolerating it suggested that lawbreaking was acceptable. It wasn’t the behavior specifically, it was the attitude behind it. When the city began enforcing laws against these minor offenses, it changed the way people viewed other laws too, and had a powerful impact on reducing crime. Cussing is the same — if you allow this socially unacceptable behavior, it becomes harder to draw the line. The point raised about racial and ethnic slurs is a perfect example. It’s not just “these words are offensive” but the larger point it is that “it is not okay to hurt and offend others with these words.” Then you can generalize that idea to other contexts, such as it is not okay to hit, or insult, or tease or do other things that needlessly hurt others. And that is a general principal we could use more of right now — clearly, it’s a lesson that has NOT been learned by many adults who would purposely bring dogs to the site of a mosque or burn Korans.
Here’s how it works for me:
Situation: 4 year old kid on the slide yelling “Oh sh*t.”
Mental reaction: “Note to self – white trash alert – steer son away from those people.” (Yeah, I know the kid can’t help it, but I’ve worked too hard in life to have my kids growing up around parents like Joy Farrah Darville Hickey Turner http://mynameisearl.wikia.com/wiki/Joy_Turner)
Physical reaction: Act like I don’t hear it, and just keep walking.
About ten years ago I was having dinner with two of my friends and one of their friends, who had his 2-year-old son with him. He was a terrific guy and his toddler was very well behaved (especially since his mother was home with his recently-born preemie brother). Eventually the toddler started to poop in his diaper and his father turned to him and said, “Are you sh***ing?” over and over again. I said I was really surprised that he’d say that to his 2-year-old. He said, “Well, sh** isn’t a dirty word. F*** — THAT’S a dirty word.” I told him I thought his son’s future kindergarten teacher might have a different idea about that.
The next time I saw the dad was about five years later, by which time he and his wife had four kids, three of whom were in school or pre-school. I reminded him of the conversation we’d had at dinner several years earlier and he admitted that he had long since stopped using sh** and poop interchangeably. I suspect the dad who authored the piece you refer to will have a similar epiphany someday.
I cringed at your goth comments the first time I read them. Since you are inclined to quote yourself here I must respond. I think your reaction to kids dressing alternately is as ridiculous as parents in the 1960s upset over The Beatles and kids wearing longer hair. Often kids who dress goth or hippy-ish are kids you are not your typical cheerleader or jock and thank God for these kids. They are often artistic, sensitive, non-traditional individuals who need to connect with other non-mainstream kids. Your belief that their clothes and subculture lead to depression, drugs etc. is just plain wrong. There are plenty of hippy looking kids who are not drug addicts and never become addicts. I was one of them and all of my friends have grown up to be successful socially and professionally. There is no more addiction in subcultures than in the larger mainstream culture. Drug addiction is everywhere.
As for swearing, how silly that people are offended. Personally, I’m offended by gas guzzling SUVs, religions that preaches hate and intolerance, corporations that steal from the American taxpayers, the torture of animals etc. etc. Swearing? I’m offended your offended.
This seems to be a particularly apropos blog post:
http://yetanotherbloomingblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/eff-you-see-kay.html
I agree with you on the swearing. I disagree with your thoughts on allowing kids to dress in a goth style.
For the most part, style is harmless. Plenty of young boys are running around here in the suburbs, dressing in “gangster” style clothes. I disapprove of that because it’s not necessarily culturally appropriate, but I don’t believe it puts them in any danger. I doubt an actual gangster is going to approach a 15 year old wearing baggy jeans and ask him if he wants to be initiated.
As for goth, so what? Sometimes, teenagers are depressed and want to express themselves that way. I think as long as they have limits (eg: no torn up pantyhose at church) there’s nothing wrong with it. I believe that as long as parents are keeping good tabs on their kids, there’s no need to worry that what they’re wearing is going to lead them down a destructive path.
Sally, I think I love you!!!
I always tell my kids that they will be judged by the language they use. I don’t know that I am mortified when a little kid pops off by saying “sh*t”, but it’s also not something I would laugh about. Well, at least not in the kids hearing range anyhow.
My first kid NEVER had a problem with bad language. Deplores it. The second one was like a little sponge. I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry that I have a ten year old that can do a perfect deadpan imitation of Eric Cartman. (he caught a few minutes before my husband changed the channel. Oops. )
I also see slutty clothing as a very different matter from dressing sort of “counterculturally”. Maybe because I once was that kids whose parents focused on the outward appearance while completely ignoring that I was dying inside, I just don’t see that big of a deal with a kid getting a facial piercing or dressing in black. I’d be looking more at the big picture to see if they are just expressing themselves or if its only a small piece of a bigger problem.
I’ve seen very little correlation between the “mainstreamness” of a teenagers appearance and their inner mental health.
Once, as part of a community service project in high school our class visited a nursing home. Afterwards, the multiple pierced, goth looking kid in our class said, “They all acted like they were afraid of me.” Well yeah, he looked kinda scary. So clothes, swearing, it’s all about context and I don’t think it is wrong to teach kids that. The guy who wrote the essay in question seems to think it is a lesson his son will learn, just someone else will be pointing it out to the poor kid. And I agree with km, he sounds really dismissive of his wife and her concerns.
I think alot of parents with young kids read babble and have little idea how obnoxious it is to have an older child that curses.
Teach kids to express their feelings, thoughts and ideas with words that are socially acceptable everywhere. Not just in your home. It serves them well as they mature!
In general an adolescents Extreme clothing style change is a serious red flag for parents to understand.
Dewi, can you back your claim up with evidence?
I think the key word there Lauren is CHANGE. It’s not about whether a kid is goth or pierced or whatever. But if your previously preppy kid starts dressing goth, yeah, I’d be concerned. But not because of the gothness. Because of the change.
I guess too, Sarah, how far would I take this in teaching kids that they must conform to the expectations of others??? I would venture to say maybe the seniors were the ones with the problem, not the other way around!!!
That said, I’ve known some people who were nothing but attention whores with their clothing. But that’s a different matter entirely. All about the what’s on the inside which can’t always be judged by whats on the outside.
We were very careful to never use inappropriate language in our house, and in fact, many years ago, after our now 22 year old daughter’s first day at a preschool, she got into the car and said, “Mom, what does sh*t mean?” I almost fainted! Well, fast forward a dozen years or so and although we still didn’t use profanity, both my son and daughter were slinging it at each other like a couple of sailors whenever the moment presented itself, most likely in the middle of a huge brother and sisterly fight! I’ve always tried to discourage that language and we still don’t use it, but my kids…they are products of a verbally abusive culture that has permeated the airwaves of late. It disappoints me, but I also remember being a teenager and young adult. If every other word didn’t have *F* in it, well…we just couldn’t make our point!
I would have no problem asking a kid of mine not to wear multiple piercings and goth dress to a nursing home. I would also have no problem asking a kid of mine not to swear in front of residents in a nursing home. Everyone conforms to societal expectations to a certain extent. Think about your last job interview. Did you wear your miller light shirt and jeans or did you dress up? Did you curse like a sailor? Probably not, because you knew the first judgement they were going to make was going to be what was on the outside, not inside. So that is why I say it is all about context. If you know your audience is going to be a large group of older adults then don’t be suprised when they get offended by your goth dress and piercings.
Liz, adolesence is ALL ABOUT change. Parenting at that age shouldn’t be about being reactionary to every shift of clothing. It’s about knowing your kid. If your kid dressing goth concerns YOU, okay. But it’s not a universal cause for concern.
Lauren,
The extreme “change” is something to pay attention to. Adolescents still need parental support and guidance. I had a preppy well dressed depressed, drug addict adolescent. It was subtle how she changed, but knowing her the changes were a red flag. It took me a while to recognize it for what it really was.
I agree with you that the developmental stage of adolescence is all about change. This does make it very confusing for a parents to tease out what’s normal or what is a red flag and the parents need to take a closer look, maybe get help.
Adolescent need for autonomy from the family should not be made into a pathology. But there are some very scary unhealthy ways teens go about doing this if they spiraling into depression or abusing drugs.
Just pay attention. That’s all. Some changes are part of drug abuse, and depression.
I admit I already posted a comment about this one over on Motherlode, but as a teacher I have dealt with kids who swear and say “hate” more than just once or twice to try it out, including at the preschool level.
The way I have dealt with frequent swearing and “hate” speech with younger children is primarily to treat it as a form of aggression. Some kids hit or bite, or grab or shove or push, and some kids use words. The explanation I give kids for why they can’t use that language (at school or childcare) is that it’s hurtful to others. And we don’t allow ANY behaviors that are hurtful (or bullying). I don’t get into a big moral thing about it.
This approach seems to work pretty well. Labeling a behavior as “not nice” or “naughty” often has zero or the opposite of the desired effect. Any PK program with a decent social-emotional curriculum should have already laid the foundation for all the children to understand that hurtful behavior is unacceptable. If a child continues to swear, then this would be treated as a case requiring parental involvement and a behavior remediation strategy.
Most parents are pretty embarrassed when it comes out that their kid has the vocabulary of a drunken sailor, because, obviously, the kid learned it at home.
Would love to see Mr. Treaster squirming at one of these meetings!
I think we’re on the same page Lauren. My entire point was that for some kids it might be a sign of something and for others it might not be. It’s all in knowing your kids and not projecting your own view of how you think they should be onto them when you assess the situation.
I am probably far more relaxed about this stuff than a lot of parents. I’ve been told off for letting my kids put red streaks in their hair, get mohawks, pierce their ears, pierce their eyebrows, listen to or watch x,y or z. Keeping my fingers crossed, but so far so good on the stuff that really matters.
It’s also interesting that I’ve never really had an issue with a kid wanting to dress sluttishly. I may be giving myself far too much credit though, for something that is merely the luck of the draw.
Sally, I’m offended that you grew up so professional but use the wrong form of a word. ‘Your’ should be ‘you’re’.
But seriously, what other people are offended by is silly to you? I love people who rail against mainstream culture just for the sake of being different. It’s mainstream because it appeals to many people, not because it’s the right way.
How dare I bristle at the thought of my young boys talking about sex by using the F-word in place of a more fitting exclamation like “Oh no!” or, “That hurt!” I cuss quite freely with my friends in private but would never do it at my job. That’s just how the world really is. You really do have to encounter people who don’t think like you. Respecting boundaries is how we all get along enough to make differing views work. Not cussing in front of someone who is offended by it merely gives you the chance to communicate with them; it doesn’t mean you are giving in to The Man. When you insult or belittle someone’s beliefs, you automatically cut off real dialogue with them. Now, you can think cussing is no big deal; that’s your right. However, you don’t help yourself any by doing it at inappropriate times. There are certain people who will just not listen to your message. That applies to all the ways you present yourself-language, clothing, manners.
As parents, that is the distinction we must teach our kids. You can be yourself unless you are harming others. That’s how a society works.
YES, Rosstwinmom. I was going to expand on what you said but you said it perfectly.