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Getting your cuffed hands from front to back does not require double joints a la Houdini. I imagine some could do this a lot easier than others depending on flexability, weight and body type. What I do find questionable is the self strangulation. Is this the presumption? I find that hard to beleive, but people will and can do the damndest things in lock up. I worked for a different AZ PD dept and the stories that come in (that don’t make it to the news) are amazing to say the least. It’s the time frame that makes it questionable to me.

you’re right Mary.

But the timeline is even tighter than you suggest.

She was arrested at approx 2.55pm….and declared dead at 3.29pm.

The walk down the airport concourse, and down the lift, took roughly five minutes….or so we are led to believe.

Let’s imagine processing and searching, along with shackling her in the cell, took another five minutes.

Carol was possibly alone in that cell after 3.05pm.

She was declared dead at 3.29pm. If we imagine her effectively dead by 3.15pm…..that gives her a window of 10 minutes to kill herself (whether by accident or design).

The cops tell us that she got her cuffs around, from front to back, in that time…..and also that she went on to seemingly strangle herself. Houdini lives!

Sounds helluva fishy to me. Best they tell it to a jury.

How do you manage to strangle yourself in ten minutes while handcuffed behind your back and chained to an eyehook on a bench?
Timeline.. Arrested at 2;53. Reports said female officer searched her, then reports say female officer did not search her as she resisted being searched. Timeline doesn’t work with all that had to transpire between 2:53 and time of death. Also, in Arizona we no longer use mouth to mouth, but compression CPR alone is the standard. If we use mouth to mouth, we use a shield to protect from disease.

I just want to add, I would not be surprised if toxicology results show NO alchohol in her system at all. This is because of the “may have been drinking”. It’s so easy to verify if that may was an absolute or not.

Yes, her husband called ahead. My point is that her family may not have been fully aware of her condition. People with depression are remarkably good at hiding it.

Though security perhaps should not have used such excessive force, i feel that many people are giving them more blame than they should.

Air travel has lots of hassles, one of them being overbooking. though normally they do not not allow people on because they check in late for overbooking. Why didn’t she check everything through at her first airport? ususally they do that automatically, then you have your boarding pass. if she was taking different airlines, why didn’t she schedule an adequate layover to account for checking in? unless her flight was seriously delayed, in which case she may not have been allowed on because LEGALLY they aren’t allowed to check you in usually 15-20 min. before domestic flights. this is the law, not the airline’s fault. it’s also not the airline’s fault if the next flight is full. (which if it wasn’t overbooked, it probably would be).

it doesn’t matter if she was drunk or not. in the situation, if she seemed out of control security guards who were not monitering her the whole time are trained to assume the worst, to protect themselves and others.

security guards are NOT trained counselors, doctors, whatever. Airports may not be staffed with a full time doctor or clergyman, and certainly not counselor. How willing are you for ticket prices to go up to make that possible (they would have to go up A LOT)? maybe they left her to get a dr. or something for her, especially if she was injured in the process of being restrained. Perhaps they used too much force, but if they used force at all, she was probably doing more than shouting and crying. she was probably actively resisting them (violent).

Also, everyone’s all uppity that they left her alone. Have you seen airport security lines recently? maybe, just maybe, with so many flights overbooked the airport was crowded and they needed more people monitoring everything for the general public’s safety. If she was still out of control and not talking to them, they probably thought that if they left her alone, she’d calm down. I’m sure they’ve had many freak outs due to the nightmare airport travelling is, and probably have a protocol for this. When i worked at a movie theatre i’ve had people threaten me because their popcorn wasn’t hot enough. I was not in any position to give them a hug, or provide them counselling. On the very rare occasions impossible for me to calmly mollify the situation which usually worked somewhat successfully. Though it may happen more often in airports, security usually only came in when my safety was in jeapordy. what i’m saying is she was probably doing more than crying about how she was a depressed mother.

do i feel bad for the family, of course. but did the security guards have anyway of knowing all her back issues. NO. should some things be reviewed so this doesn’t happen again. YES. if they restrained her too violently should that be dealt with legally. YES. but let’s not blame everyone else for her death when nobody had any way of predicting this.

this is the reason we have so many frivolous lawsuits in this country, and why nobody is really treated like an adult capable of making their own decisions anymore, and everything is more expensive than it should be based on the massive legal teams every company must have on retainer to deal with such suits.

Absolutely Mary. The actions of her husband is a red herring in this whole thing. Indeed, if we stopped everyone in America who was depressed from travelling alone, then the entire country would grind to a standstill.

The thuggish inappropriate behavior of the cops is what led to the demise of Carol. When you get taken into police custody, the COPS then have responsibility for your wellbeing.

I think the Phoenix PD is gonna get hammered in a court of law (and rightfully so). And I suspect there is lot more to come out regarding the case.

The time frame, with the extremely limited window of opportunity, is very troubling. She was arrested on the airport concourse at roughly 2.55pm. I’d guess it took the cops a few minutes to walk her down to the holding area (I think they had to use a lift) and get her processed and chained into a cell. And she was declared dead at 3.29pm.

Let’s say Carol was finally in her cell and left at 3.05pm. And let’s imagine they subsequently worked on her limp lifeless body from say 3.15pm.

That gives Carol a mere 11 minutes to somehow get her cuffed and chained arms around from the back to the front…..and to somehow choke herself. And how does a person manage to choke themselves anyway? Surely you’d pass out and then come to again.

No the whole thing makes very little sense.

The cops have a helluva lot of very serious questions to answer.

Only the police are to blame for the death of Carol Gotbaum. That’s where the blame lies, all other factors leading to the police handcuffing her and taking her in custody. Look up the definition of custody.

I am truly sorry for this family’s loss, but I have to raised the question: If she did hurt someone in her rage would we be saying something else? Law enforcement officers first duty is to protect the citizens, not spend large amounts of time trying to figure out what is wrong with a person or the reason they are acting out.

I have had depression that presents itself as rage and one must pay for the consequences that brings. I do believe that the officers did their job and subdued an irrate person. If I was in that airport with my family and someone was ranting and throwing things I would find an officer. Also, if one resist it makes it worse. I don’t think there was any reason to have an officer stay with her, because they had no idea that she was suicidal and I don’t think she was in any mood to cooperate with them.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but that doesn’t mean we can’t show compassion for her and her family.

Rachael Brownell (Redsy) – thanks for the blog. It’s great to see compassionate people still exist.

I have been haunted by Carol’s death. And I know from many other blogs and posts, that many others are too. It’s not that I knew her. But it’s the fact that she was an ordinary mom, who was offering no threat to anyone, who had made a courageous decision to go across the country to seek help. And her plans started to unravel, with the despicable airline’s activities.

Who wouldn’t but cry for Carol when she cried on that last call to her husband before cops grabbed her, that ‘They won’t let me on the plane. It’s all falling apart’. What human being with any compassion in their heart would not be moved by her plight.

Her assault by 4 burly male thugs with badges was despicable. Two witnesses have already said that they used excessive force and even feared that Carol’s shoulder had been dislocated. She was a threat to no-one. But they accosted her, trussed her up, and tied her shackles to a bench and left her alone. Her cries on that airport concourse of ‘I’m a sick mom, I need help’ went unanswered.

If those thugs had done that to a dog, they’d be up on charges. Shouldn’t we hold their treatment of humans to an even higher bar.

Over here in Ireland or the UK, any cop that did what they did to Carol would be in court for assault. And the death in custody would have resulted in several cops put out on paid leave until an independent investigation (i.e. we don’t allow the police to investigate themselves) was complete. The cops would then possibly face manslaughter charges (assuming her death was accidental and not worse).

Carol spent much of her adult life living and working n London. I imagine that she was totally unprepared for the overbooking scam of airlines in the states, and the fascist type aggression of american cops.

She was an angel surrounded by demons in that God forsaken airport. God bless you Carol pet.

http://whackjobmoms.blogspot.com/2007/10/airport-whacksyes-that-is-plural.html

I can sympathize with this mother. Too bad, we’ve come to this.

Jane, there is a difference between drinking and DRUNK. Nowhere in the police report or any official report, is she said to be intoxicated, or legally drunk. And you know, if she was, it would have been a charge against her along with disorderly conduct. So, get off your sanctimonious, selfrighteous Lady MacBeth seat, and quit spreading the lies the police are allowing to be printed by complicity. I’ve always heard there is a difference between having a drink or 2 and being INTOXICATED. All one needed to do to verify it is ask the bartender/waiter who served her at the bar/restaurant at the airport. She also had sat and waited in the terminal after being told she could not get on the 1:30 flight, waiting for the 2:58 flight, only to be told that flight was overbooked as well. If she was drunk…nobody said she was. And she seemed to be fine waiting in the terminal. She lost it because she was getting the shrift and no help. If this happpened to me across the country in New York, and I was stranded in a NYC airport, I would be just as hysterical. Or would have been, till the fear of death had been put in me by Airports, Phoenix Police, and the War on Terror’s assault on our freedom.

Jane, there is a difference between drinking and DRUNK. Nowhere in the police report or any official report, is she said to be intoxicated, or legally drunk. And you know, if she was, it would have been a charge against her along with disorderly conduct. So, get off your sanctimonious, selfrighteous Lady MacBeth seat, and quit spreading the lies the police are allowing to be printed by complicity. I’ve always heard there is a difference between having a drink or 2 and being INTOXICATED. All one needed to do to verify it is ask the bartender/waiter who served her at the bar/restaurant at the airport. She also had sat and waited in the terminal after being told she could not get on the 1:30 flight, waiting for the 2:58 flight, only to be told that flight was overbooked as well. If she was drunk…nobody said she was. And she seemed to be fine waiting in the terminal. She lost it because she was getting the shrift and no help. If this happpened to me across the country in New York, and I was stranded in a NYC airport, I would be just as hysterical. Or would have been, till the fear of death had been put in me by Airports, Phoenix Police, and the War on Terror’s assault on our freedom.

Rachael, I beg to differ. I’m not saying airport security is beyond reproach in this case, but I think the family who allowed her to travel alone are equally, if not more, responsible. She was in an extremely fragle state and her family were well aware of this. Airport security have no way of knowing this. This all could have been easily avoided imo had someone taken the time to escort her.

I have yet to understand or hear why they didn’t. This whole thing was avoidable had someone in her family cared enough to go with her. I’m sure her husband and friends are now beside themselves with guilt and grief. But it’s not like she just popped off inexplicably. Her behavior was predictable (and predicted) by her family and they should have known. Air travel is extremely stressfull these days especially so for someone who is under mental stress and probably not stable enough to be making decisions on her own much less traveling on her own.

Jane, where did you hear she was “drunk” at the airport? the reports I’ve read did NOT report that. I did read that the airline gave away her seat even though she was confirmed from JKF all the way to TUS, claiming that she showed up at the gate in PHX too late (25 minutes before departure). Sarcasm alert–Maybe she should have reconfirmed her connection when she was somewhere over Kansas. Doesn’t eveyone call ahead to make sure the airline knows they’re on their way from their originating city? Of course she should not have lost it, but it sounds like the airline capriciously and callously changed the usual procedure. Until she broke down, she did what she was supposed to do. The company did not.

Hey! I’m not saying this isn’t tragic either — especially for her children. They are the victims of alcoholism and not airport security though. It’s not that I’m not feeling compassionate, but come on!

It is not a black and white issue. I think Jane is right in that airport security cannot (and should not) act as treatment counselors. They have no way of knowing a person’s condition and, by an large, probably act within reasonable bounds.

If this woman had another medical condition, was traveling in a fragile condition, alone and died under similar circumstances would we still be blaming airport security?

It’s amazing to me how completely ignorant and unsympathetic people can be in the face of a tragedy such as this one. Easy to point fingers and blame if you’ve never been there yourself I guess…

“Keep your opinion to yourself since it mainly seems to concern you anyway.”

It’s a blog, genius. How do you think this is supposed to work?

Really, Travel Safely, sounds like you need to ‘get a grip’ and ‘keep your opinion to yourself.’ Sounds like your opinion concerns only yourself as well…. have you heard of compassion?!

I don’t scream at people either, but I am also not dealing with addiction, depression, possibly other mental illness, leaving my family under extremely stressful conditions, travelling within an industry that is ever-changing, to a place I’ve never been before….. lighten up, it’s a sad situation on so many levels.

Hey Travel Safely, you seem really, really upset. Is this your example of how you are when you “lose it”? I don’t think that the blogger was trying to offend you personally in any way, and I think she was just trying to say that it’s sad that a depressed woman who was on her way to get treated killed herself, because her depression was misinterpreted. You might want to find out why that filled you with so much rage.

She was NOT stopped in an effort to call her children. She was “stopped” during a verbal and possibly physical assault on airline employees.

Yes! I have “off days” and get annoyed at things during travel. I DO NOT scream at or threaten employees or the transportation industry.

I’m sure I’d rightly assume that you would call the appropriate authority if someone anyone “dared” to to confront your pristine all knowing presence in the guise of a uniformed guard or proper authority.

Oh…. she wasn’t in front of you in line was she? Your flight wasn’t delayed because of her…. your plans weren’t disrupted…..

Get a grip you dumbass….. It isn’t all about you or your “be nice to everyone at any cost” mentality. Everyone wants to travel safely.

Keep your opinion to yourself since it mainly seems to concern you anyway.