Another Newborn Dies from Orthodox Circumcision Ritual
So-called religious practices that kill babies have no place in society.
In a truly horrifying story, a two-week old baby boy died in Brooklyn at Maimonides Hospital last fall after contracting herpes through an Orthodox religious circumcision ritual. The official cause of death recently released from the boy’s death last year has been ruled as “disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction.”
The Orthodox ritual, known as metzizah b’ peh, has the rabbi (or mohel) “remove blood from the wound with his mouth” (emphasis mine) during a bris.
The NY Daily News reports that the practice is one “city health officials have criticized, saying it carries ‘inherent risks’ for babies. It’s also not the first time a death has occurred. Back in 2004 in Rockland County, there was a public outcry after three infants circumcised by Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer contracted herpes from the same religious practice. One case was fatal. Other babies have died while still others have lived but suffered brain damage.
My question is, how is this practice even legal? Surely a grown adult male having oral contact with a baby is a crime, even if the parents say it’s OK. Whether the claim is a religious request or not, the physical action itself is unnatural on so many levels. Imagine, if you will, that exact scenario happening in any other situation and it not being considered a crime. People need to stop hiding behind religion to perform immoral and unhealthy practices.
In addition, it’s common sense that placing your mouth on a fresh, opened wound is unhealthy for any baby, on any body part, let alone a newborn’s penis (especially when a portion of it was just snipped off). Whether you are pro-circumcision or against it is an entirely different story. While I would not cut off any of my son’s body parts, I would not consider a hospital circumcision to be in a category even remotely close to having a Rabbi snip a baby’s penis in a crowded living room and then suck the blood out with his mouth.
Here is what the New York City Department of Health has to say about it:
Oral herpes spreads easily through saliva, especially when saliva touches a cut or break in the skin, such as during metzitzah b’peh.Most people with oral herpes don’t know they are infected and don’t have symptoms. Even without symptoms, however, people can spread the infection.
Because the immune system of newborns is not developed enough to fight serious infection, herpes infections pose grave risks to infants.
How are mothers even allowing this in 2012? The shock factor of the actual procedure is only made worse by the babies contracting transmittable diseases, and in this case, a disease that lead to the baby’s death. Surely, if a mother feels the need to circumcise her son for religious reasons, she does not need to select a Rabbi who incorporates metzizah b’ peh into the bris. Apparently, a sterile glass tube, or pipette has been created specifically for this use. Instead of direct oral contact between the rabbi and the newborn’s penis, the sterile tube can be used instead to suck out the blood. Still disturbing in my opinion, but far less dangerous, medically speaking.
I’m all for people marking their child’s birth with a religious celebration, but when it compromises a baby’s life, there is no religion in the world that is worth that.
And hey, here’s a wild thought, how about leaving the baby boy alone and not putting his life in danger under the guise of religion?
Image: Stockxchng
UPDATE: The Brooklyn D.A. has launched an investigation into the baby’s death.
Wow. That this same thing happened again, and in NYC is just horrifying.
I wrote about the controversy that happened with Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer in my newspaper column along with a lot more. For instance, to promote circumcision as somehow reducing the potential spread of HIV is countered by five studies that say that’s not true. To read it, go to: http://wehonews.com/z/wehonews/Pages.php?choice=5792
Gee, thanks for the anti-semetic hysteria ladies.
I’ve been to many circumcisions, and NONE used this technique. NONE. Religious. Less religious. This is not some secret ritual. They are public events. Go and watch one if you want to comment on my ritual practices. But don’t spread fear or hate. All were done by highly trained doctors who used pain medication of some kind and sterilized equipment and gloves. ALL OF THEM.
The DOCTOR who circumsized my son in a ritual that links him to millenia of his forefathers, does it often in her clinic for people who aren’t in the market for a religious circumcision. It’s a legal and perfectly ordinary procedure.
If you don’t want to that for your son, don’t book an appointment.
You can go back to spreading hate and being ignorant now.
Just because something’s been done for millenia doesn’t make it right. Just because someone thinks mutilating a baby, or actually performing any medically unnecessary procedure without a human’s informed consent doesn’t make them “anti-semitic.” Perhaps your “religion” needs criticism. Doesn’t mean your people should be killed, banned, exported from the country, etc. But, you are certainly not beyond criticism. Frankly I don’t care if it is a clean surgical process, what makes you or anyone else think you know better than God or nature how a human body should be formed? It’s archaic and based in a very destructive tradition.
Kate, your anecdotes do not substitute for data. Just because you haven’t seen this, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen within some sects. Focus your energy on eradicating the ridiculous and dangerous parts of your religion rather than defending the religion as a whole.
@Kate Really? That’s your response? I support a parent’s right to have their child circumcised, I don’t think it’s abuse or mutilation or anything else. But just because your family did it in a safe and reasonable manner doesn’t mean everyone does, and pretending that those who are expressing disgust with the above story are merely antisemetic makes you sound like a wacko.
This is a very sad and disturbing story!!! I feel so bad for this family for their loss, but really people.letting someones (I don’t care who it is) mouth come in contact with your childs bleeding private parts is just sick. People need to open their eyes to reality and change some customs that are obviuosly harmful, I don’t care what religion it is!
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More than 100 American baby boys die from circumcision-related causes each year. We just don’t hear about the other ones.
It is way past the time for the baby boy pen is parts removal to stop. If an adult wants to cut off genital parts, that is fine. Amputating nerves, blood vessels, protective covering tissue and pleasure zone tissue of infants must stop.
No one that is at all credible claims there are no functions to the parts cut off. However, the sexual function and pleasure are ignored or downplayed by the penis part removal pushers those trying to get cover for their own mutilated state by forcing the disfigurment on the next generation (SHAME). The long term harm is huge with nerve damage and harm to the sensory system. A whole range of sensation and sexual and protective function are lost. The lips, nipples and fingertips have similar touch sense. To take this away from another person without their consent is heinous.
To remove these parts from a baby is way creepy.
I’m really disturbed by the tone of this article. As an orthodox Jew who HAS had my son circumcised by my husband in EXACTLY the manner described above (and watched other mohels do it to dozens of others as well) I take umbrage at the implication that those of us who practice Judaism are ignorant fools for putting our children at risk. Just as there are doctors who decline to use best practices and thereby put their patients at risk, their are also Mohels who do so and ought to be censured (and are, in Israel) but they are not regulated or licensed in America, as they ought to be.
If you are already opposed to the practice of circumcision, please let someone who is more neutral write an article about the tragic death of an infant, so you don’t come off looking like not only an anti-Semite, but also an opportunist, looking to push an opinion on the back of another family’s tragedy. Each of us as parents makes decisions to do what we feel is best for our children (physically, emotionally, spiritually), and there will always be those who consider these choices to be risky. Clearly, circumcision is not as dangerous a practice as you would like to think, or the Jewish people would have died out long ago, as many have wanted us to for generations.
Kate–I think if you read the article through, you will see that Danielle, while against circumcision personally, has drawn a distinction between more modern practices (such as you mention) and the outdated practice she is criticizing. Obviously, as the events described show, the practice does indeed occur. Just because you personally haven’t seen it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Just because it is rare, doesn’t mean the practice shouldn’t be critcized. Just because a person criticizes an outdated practice that has indeed lead to the death of babies does not mean a person is an anti-semite.
Sadly, I knew someone whose (female) newborn baby died of HSV1 acquired through some kind of casual contact, so this can happen even to babies who aren’t circumcised in this very unsanitary way. It seems pretty obviously dangerous though.
Vampire Pedophiles? No, just Orthodox Rabbis…
Stranger than fiction, I tell you!
From the Oxford English Dictionary- “Anti- Semitism- hostility to or prejudice against Jews”.I am always amazed at the accusations of anti-Semitism levelled at those who simply disagree. How is an opinion that a particular aspect of a culture/ritual is harmful to children considered to be hostility or prejudice against Jews in general? I’m a black Christian of Caribbean descent and there are aspects of my cultural/religious background that I don’t like. Does that mean I’m racist or anti-Christian against myself?
In any event, I agree with Danielle, circumcision is, in my opinion, a harmful practice, especially as practised in the manner described in the article. In 2012, we should not be able to hide behind religion as a justification for such practices.
How could it EVER be ok for an adult to put his mouth on a baby’s penis, under any circumstances? I don’t care where the ritual comes from. It’s disgusting.
this is a rather misinformed post. i’m a reform jew and do not support or condone this practice, which is only performed by a small segment of our most religious jews. nearly every rabbi who does use the so-called “oral” technique does use appropriate surgical pipettes and similar, with absolutely no actual mouth contact. religious traditions are often slow to update to meet appropriate health and safety guidelines, and they well should, but these unsafe techniques are hardly part of mainstream judaism (actually, almost never part of orthodox judaism either) and typical circumcision rituals. mohels are almost always extremely well trained in hygienic techniques and safety, which is why religious circumcision is quite safe.
you do realize how graspy-at-strawsy any defense of this practice, what with all the special “pipettes” and all is, right? it’s laughable, if it weren’t so disgusting
” religious traditions are often slow to update to meet appropriate ” The appropriate health and safety guideline is to not cut off nerves/tissue of a baby. It is time for Jews and Muslims to see this creepy practice for what the rest of the intact world sees it as: mutilation to the human, without his consent. This is a basic violatioin of the child’s human rights. Those that point this out are not anti semetic but rather pro baby and male rights to get to experience all of the body we were born with. Having only part of the penis is not cleaner (particularly for a baby — wound near feces and urine) and it is not healthier as there are no observed benefits in the US as to HIV, HPV or STDs.
Baby boy penis parts removal should already be considered illegal under the 1996 federal law banning genital cutting — 14th Amendment equal protection clause. Those saying that preventing the cutting off of penis parts of a baby boy violates the cutter’s freedom of religion, are way out there in irrational land. One’s religion ends where their knife touches another human’s body. The idea that another human’s sexual sacrifice ritual (rite) trumps ones right to body parts is insane and creepy. Baby boy penis parts removal cuts off thousands of fine touch and stretch nerves. This is like disconnecting the fingertips, nipples or lips from the brain. No human should be subjected to sensory system harm as well as a forced decrease of sexual function and PLEASURE for life!
Ms. Sullivan did not just call for the use of sterile equipment that might protect a baby from contracting an infection or a virus. She called for hospital circumcision as the alternative. (Such a requirement is neither necessary nor able to meet Jewish ritual requirements.) Ms. Sullivan called the practitioners of this pedophiles. She claimed circumcision is dangerous.
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“And hey, here’s a wild thought, how about leaving the baby boy alone and not putting his life in danger under the guise of religion?” – Danielle Sullivan
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There was nothing dangerous about my son’s circumcision. It was less dangerous than taking him in a car and we did that regularly when he was a baby and continue to do so to this day.
“Focus your energy on eradicating the ridiculous and dangerous parts of your religion rather than defending the religion as a whole.”
Yes, this! http://jewishcircumcision.org/
I think circumcision is just wrong, and I regret that I didn’t realize that before my son was born. He’s fine and has had no complications, but it wasn’t up to us to mutilate his little body. It’s my biggest regret as a parent, and I see nothing wrong with spreading awareness about this issue. If someone had made ME aware, there would have been one less circumcision.
JACK, I acknowledge your posts and I agree.
Kate–If you read more carefully, you’ll see that Danielle is not advocating for only hospital circumcisions. (Based on her comments she’d advocate for no circumcisions.) She notes that a hospital circ. is not remotely close to the practice described. She then goes on to say “if a mother feels the need to circumcise her son for religious reasons, she does not need to select a Rabbi who incorporates metzizah b’ peh into the bris. Apparently, a sterile glass tube, or pipette has been created specifically for this use. Instead of direct oral contact between the rabbi and the newborn’s penis, the sterile tube can be used instead to suck out the blood.” Maybe she could have explicitly noted that the particular practice was relatively rare, but again just b/c it is rare doesn’t insulate it from critical comment.
“There was nothing dangerous about my son’s circumcision.”
You can’t know that. All you know is that he survived it. (There may even be ill-effects that won’t manifest themselves till he’s an adult.)
I think it is irresponsible to lead the reader to believe that all Brit milah take place this way. This must be an extreme and infrequent custom because I have been a practicing Jew for 43 years and have never heard of it. My son had a bris-there was no such physical contact and it was a beautiful, meaningful religious experience. Shame on you for leading the uninformed reader to think that this is common practice. You should do a little fact checking before publishing such a gross generalization.
The overall tone of this article is concerning . Seriously… This article would never be written towards a Muslim tradition. Seems like anti Jewish feelings still run high. Scared to think what will happen once Nazi history is a few more decades behind us…
@Kate generally the term pedophile is overused, but it’s pretty evident that people here aren’t calling the practice of circumcision pedophillia, they are referring SPECIFICALLY to the practice of using the mouth on an infant’s penis. Yes. People here are also attacking circumcision as a whole but the majority of the outrage, and the obvious outrage in the article, is MOUTH + PENIS. I’m sure most rabbis who practice this particular ritual (metzizah b’ peh) are not pedophiles, I’m sure most of them are as careful as they can be, but I would think you could understand the visceral repulsion of such an image, as well as understand the health concerns.
@Jessica if a Muslim, Buddhist, or even Christian practice involved a ritual that mirrored oral sex on a minor, I’m pretty sure there’d be just as much outrage all around. By the way, I personally have no problem with circumcision, but the people who are arguing against it here see it as a major health risk or a human rights violation or both. To imply that these people would commit genocide is beyond a leap.
I have nothing against people who curcumcise their baby boys or against those who choose not to, that is the parents decision and I feel either way is fine. The problem here is someone putting their mouth on my baby son’s penis for any reason whatsoever!!! Not only is it unsanitary which is the least thing wrong with this but it is child molestation plain and simple. I don’t care what religion you are. I don’t have any issues with any specific religion but this is wrong, and should be stopped in this country!!!
People rightly critique the Muslim practice of female circumcision, and male circumcision is the same thing. I boldly criticize all archaic religious practices that denigrate humanity and have no place in a contemporary, civilized society. LTOO’s link shows that not all Jews circumcise, so you don’t *have* to.
@Suzie I don’t think that’s fair. Not all Christians baptize but you wouldn’t (I hope) tell a Catholic that baptism is unnecessary to their faith.
oh geeze– not saying they would commit genocide per se- but the tone of the article IS concerning. Instead of the author doing due diligence BEFORE reporting on this obviously RARE event ( I think a few quick interviews with practicing Jews would have served her well) — she paints a broads brush that all Jewish circumcisions are tantamount to oral sex with children. It IS that type of thinking- if not swiftly corrected- that leads down a destructive path. And that path ends with dehumanizing a specific people group…. a-la my previous statement.
I think the Catholic religion is just as full of awfulness as this manifestation of Judaism, so invoking what I’d say to a Catholic isn’t useful. Still, sprinkling water on a baby’s head is hardly equal to chopping off part of it’s body. The blatant turning a blind eye to the reality of what is being done is quite breathtaking!
I don’t think this article sounds like most Jews practice this ritual… If anything she is totally horrified because, while she is already aware of (and against) circumcision, she had obviously never heard of this particular twist (nor had I).
“Surely, if a mother feels the need to circumcise her son for religious reasons, she does not need to select a Rabbi who incorporates metzizah b’ peh into the bris.”
This is a very emotional post, and I think that is understandable, because what she describes is something instinctively disturbing. No one (I think) believes this is normally what circumcision looks like, even those who are vehemently against it for other reasons.
@Suzie my point wasn’t whether you agree with any particular practice or religion, my point was that you can’t say that because SOME Jews worship in one particular way, that must be fine for all Jews. Maybe Kosher is a better example. Some Jews don’t follow it at all, some just are very specific about what type of animal they can eat and how it’s slaughtered, and some Jews have different sets of plates for meat and dairy (or something like that). You can certainly disagree with a religious practice but you can’t LOGICALLY claim that it is unneccessary because some Jews dont do it.
I was trying to give Jews the benefit of the doubt. Chopping off part of another person’s body for no medical reason without their informed consent is wrong. I would think Jews would do well to remove themselves from such a sickening practice.
The fact that the religious practice is Jewish has nothing to do with the outrage over the loss of an innocent baby, It’s the practice, and its ramifications that are horrific. As I mentioned, there is no reason that any woman, Jewish or not, should allow her son to be abused in this manner, “Surely, if a mother feels the need to circumcise her son for religious reasons, she does not need to select a Rabbi who incorporates metzizah b’ peh into the bris.” It is an archaic, unsanitary, and twisted tradition. Whether it happens often or not so often isn’t as much an issue as the fact that it happens at all- that should disturb all of us. This baby died, a few other babies died back in 2005 in NYC, and still others suffered permanent brain damage …and for what? The practice should be outlawed (as should any other that involves direct oral contact between a grown adult and a baby’s penis as well as any other practice that has the potential to kill babies). By focusing on a specific religion instead of the babies’ lives and well being, we are missing the boat.
I think these comments are pretty hilarious. Especially the ones that say a baby should consent to having his body parts chopped off. If you are going to go to that extreme then a baby should have to consent to everything you to do it. The baby must consent to wearing a diaper, to taking a bath, and the baby must consent to you holding it. You should not be able to do anything to a baby without that baby first giving you consent. In fact you should probably go ahead and wait for consent from the baby to even push it through your birth canal and out into this world. I work at a pediatrician’s office and there have been several older children who have not been circumcised who have requested to be. Once they are older it becomes such a harder and more delicate procedure and can be very embarrassing and psychologically harming for these kids. You are not going to ask a toddler if they think it is ok to jump off the roof of a house. Sometimes we have to make decisions as parents for our kids that are very difficult. And you don’t know what the long term effects will be. Make sure you are doing everything you can to support your child both physically and mentally. You may think you are saving them from hardship by not circumcising them but down the road they may get bullied because of something that happens in gym class and then you are left dealing with the aftermath at that time. Ask yourself, are you ready for that?
Wait @Ash, you modify your child’s perfectly normal, healthy body because of the fear that they might get bullied? How freaking back asswards is THAT?!? The other things you name as ridiculous for requiring consent do not involve mutilation. One could, perhaps, discuss things like vaccinating or not, but vaccinations are arguably medically necessary, or at least beneficial, whereas circumcision is not. Globally, the majority of people are NOT circumcised.
“down the road they may get bullied because of something that happens in gym class”
You know, I don’t understand this argument. When we asked our pediatrician’s opinion he said the same, but the circ rate right now is under 35%… isn’t it the circumcised kids who will be bullied? As I said, I am not especially anti-circumcision, I just don’t get that argument. Am I missing something?
@Suzie people DO argue that circumcision is medically beneficial. I didn’t find the argument particularly compelling myself, but plenty of people believe it.
“There was nothing dangerous about my son’s circumcision. It was less dangerous than taking him in a car and we did that regularly when he was a baby and continue to do so to this day. -Kate”
This is complete and utter hogwash. The risk of death from forced genital cutting is far higher than that of infant death from automobile accident. It’s this type of ignorance and misinformation that causes parents to take grave risks with the lives of their children.
And for what? An antiquated blood ritual that forces the beliefs of the parents on an unconsenting infant. It’s 2012 folks, time to recognize that all children are deserving of their fundamental right to bodily integrity.
@Ash
The corollary to that is, if being a parent excused everything you did to your child, there’d be no need for child protective services.
You know, let’s follow this gym class argument a bit further.
What if my daughter gets made fun of in cheerleading class because her boobs aren’t exactly the bounciest?
Will she have valid reason to hate me for not giving her a boob job like she wants?
The fact of the matter is, ALL surgery is a “hardship,” it doesn’t end at circumcision.
What if my son grows up to have prostate cancer?
Will he then have proper grounds to hate me for not giving him a prostatectomy as a baby? You know, so it wouldn’t be so “traumatic” as an adult?
‘Fraid circumcision is just a solution in search of a disease.
The foreskin is not a birth defect. Neither is it a congenital deformity or genetic anomaly akin to a 6th finger or a cleft. Neither is it a medical condition like a ruptured appendix or diseased gall bladder. Neither is it a dead part of the body, like the umbilical cord, hair, or fingernails. The foreskin is normal, natural, healthy, FUNCTIONING tissue, with which all boys are born.
Unless there is a medical or clinical indication, the circumcision of healthy, non-consenting individuals is a deliberate wound; it is the destruction of normal, healthy tissue, the permanent disfigurement of normal, healthy organs, and by very definition, infant genital mutilation, and a violation of the most basic of human rights.
Without medical or clinical indication, doctors have absolutely no business performing surgery on a healthy, non-consenting minor, much less be eliciting any kind of “decision” from parents.
Mohels are a different ballgame. If “tradition” allows them to bet cutting of bits off of boys’ penises, then imams should be allowed to cut off bits from girls vulvas.
Where does the “tradition” stop?
As long as it happens to be *yours?*
I’m sorry, but this is EXACTLY (no joke, EX-ACT-LY) like saying all devoutly Catholic priests are child molesters. I’m orthodox, we just circumcised my son, and his brit was absolutely in no way shape or form the way these nutters in Brooklyn did it! This is not the mainstream practice, it’s a very small microcosm of a microcosm of a microcosm of people who do it this way! I have never EVER seen it done this way. Also, Jack, you are BLATANTLY wrong about your comment regarding effects of circumcision on sexual pleasure. More disease comes about from un-cared-for uncircumcised penises, and supposedly circumcised men have just as much sexual pleasure if not more than those who are uncircumcised. I completely support the rights of parents to choose what they wish for their baby. But I don’t support antisemitism. And Suzie, your comments about “vampires” and the like are the rantings of an antisemite. Completely and wholly obscene!!
@Meagan, I’m sorry, I’m not gonna “chat” with you any more because you’re just being stupid. It doesn’t matter if, gee, alotta people *think* something is medically beneficial…kay? Shirah, nobody thinks ALL circumcisions are like this one, this one just spotlights the most egregious of them, although all forcible non-medically-necessary surgery performed upon humans without their consent is egregious. I suppose it’s just a matter of degree, but that’s not a slope I want to be on. I’d like some of the highly enlightened (cough cough) supporters of circumcision to explain why they are done and why they are so important. And saying that “it’s been done for five thousand years” isn’t a reason.
“cock-sucking rabbi”…really??? Danielle, you clearly don’t agree with circumcision….and I agree with the poster who said that you shouldn’t be allowed to write this article…..you have an agenda and you are out to vilify anybody who thinks bris milah is ok. And yes, you are sadly misinformed…b/c the way this brit was carried out is not the norm….but then you and all the commentators use it as a sounding board to say..well the practice shouldn’t be done anyways…and yay, when you start criticizing the religion and using terms as noted above…i detect some serious Jew hating. So much so that I’m going to write the editors at babble about this blog (hope you got your ratings up…)
Shirah, you are showing off that you know very little about a natural penis and the various parts that are cut off by this practice. Unfortunately you are not alone. Cutting off all of those nerves, blood vessels protective tissue and pleasure tissue does not result in more disease. In fact in the US cut and men with a natural penis get HIV, HPV and STDs in the same degree. Baby boys with a natural penis are much easier to take care of and do not get infections unless an idiot doctor pulls back his foreskin — that has been the cause of infections. A cut baby has a WOUND of two different tissue types forced together (the scar) and exposed to urine and feces.
“supposedly circumcised men have just as much sexual pleasure” WRONG, and wrong in a silly naive childlike way. Way out there WRONG.
Prepuce amputation is nerve damage — a cutting off about 20000 fine touch and stretch sensing nerve endings and removing a source of pleasure from the male FOR LIFE. The issue is very clear, the parts cut off have stretch and touch sensors. One touche or is touched at these parts, one stretches or one is stretched at these parts and the result is pleasure. Remove the parts, the result is removal of pleasure from ones life for good.
Circumcision is a weird thing — a cutting off of the main male pleasure zones. This is tons of pleasure giving nerves, blood vessels, protective covering and pleasure zone tissue. When you cut the parts off, the movement dynamics of the penis changes, you lose the everting function the dynamics of the penis is changed for good. This is serious genital modification (mutilation) of the male with more nerves cut than female circumcision. It does lead men to want oral and anal more, because vaginal sex is less satisfying after the cut of these parts. Cut men have more premature ejaculation issues as the scar is now the most sensitive part and they have lost control of orgasm timing. It leads to sexual dysfunction at a young age. The cut men in the world use most of the VIAGRA consumed. __Stop advocating doing this to helpless male babies. Stop harming sexual function and taking pleasure from the lives of other humans based on your superstitions.
@Suzie I probably should stop “chatting” with you, because when you resort to calling people stupid, what’s the point? But one more thought. Among the people who think circumcision is beneficial are doctors and scientists I know personally. Some are family. When I said I didn’t find it compelling, I meant that I didn’t find the benefits they mentioned significant enough to sway me for circumcision, and none of the people I spoke with felt the benifit was enough to urge me one way or the other. They simply gave me the information and said it was a personal decision, which is how we’ve treated it.
@LG Anytime a practice that has the potential to kill and cause sustainable damage to babies occurs, we ALL have the right as mothers and humans to speak out against it, whether it is tied into religion or not. Can you honestly say that nothing is wrong with the fact that babies have died because of it? It has nothing to do with being Jewish and everything to do with keeping babies healthy. And again, a parent’s prerogative to circumcise or not is their own, but there is no valid reason to ever (even once) allow a grown man to engage in oral contact with a freshly cut newborn baby’s penis- ever! Jew-hating, seriously? If anything, I am standing behind all these innocent Jewish babies who deserve to lead long and healthy lives. It could be a Christian, Buddhist, Catholic, Lutheran, Hindu or Wiccan practice for all I care- it will always be wrong and should never happen.
This is a terrible thing, but keep in mind that 1,000s of boys, Jewish and non-Jewish are circumsised a day. My own son was circumcised as part of our religious tradition. HOWEVER, I do not believe in the metzizah b’ peh (removal of blood with mouth). It is not necessary and most Jews, not of the Orthodox faith, DO NOT do this.
Whatever route you do take in circumcision, It is so important that you find a reputable and clean Mohel to do this. We had one referred to us by not only the hosptial, but our own pediatrician, who we trust intimately. There are lot of Mohels out there that quite frankly, aren’t the best. There are plenty of organizations, doctors and hospitals that will refer you to a reputable Mohel.
I really hope people realize that this is a tradition that has gone for hundreds of millions of years and that deaths associated with this are very low, regardless of the Orthodox traditions or not. If people are going to metzizah b’ peh on their child, they should make sure their Mohel has been tested and passed routine health screenings. This is something local Health Departments should regulate more, but some sects of Orthodox in the NYC Metro area do not abide by general regulations.
@ Amanda – well said
Why can’t people understand that if you happen to be a certain religion and do a certain thing people find wrong, them saying it’s wrong doesn’t mean they hate you or the religion, it means they think the wrong thing is wrong? The posts here illustrate what’s so scary about fundamentalist thinking…how it destroys reason (in those who espouse the fundamentalist view)…how it threatens to shut down discourse under the guise of protection against “religious” (or ethnic) persecution.
Stacey : Hundreds of Millions of years?
@kayla: “The risk of death from forced genital cutting is far higher than that of infant death from automobile accident.” I would loooooove to see stats on that (sticking specifically to male circumcision). I am pretty sure that’s not true, considering that automotive accidents are one of the highest causes of death for Americans overall. Is there some secret epidemic of circumcision deaths that the circ-happy media is covering up? Is there a secret penis-mutilating conspiracy?
Isn’t Strollerderby run and operated by Disney? Since when is Disney planting slanted articles against religious rituals? This article should’ve been written with a different purpose: point out the health risks of the “oral” aspect of some circumcisions and also reflect more fact: that this is NOT the case of the majority of circumcisions performed in the US. For someone Jewish, it does seem very anti-semetic to read the way that they slanted this article, makes me feel like the Editors did not do a good job here!
And quite frankly, all of you should be ashamed of yourselves, pro or anti circumcision. The only outrage that should come from this should be against the rabbi that did THIS! Clearly NY is not doing a good job regulating these types of circumcisions and if anything, maybe there should be some outreach or awareness to this tight sect in Brooklyn to alert them of these issues and make them take head of them. Let them rally together to enforce routine health screenings etc. for these rabbis! I’m disappointed with a LOT of the comments on there, but overall, more disappointed on how this article was written.
Danielle, I respect your right to disagree with circumcision (even though I do not support your evidence or your views)…I take issue with your language and those of some of your commentators (that you didn’t do anything about). You are entitled not to appreciate religion customs etc….but to disavow religion or to call it and its practices names speaks to a degree of ignorance (I can assure you us religious ppl are still up to date on the science of circumcision–we just don’t don’t draw the same conclusions as you). I found the tone, overall theme not to be expressing outrage at this particular case, but to be outright critical of the Jewish religion in general (as in…oh stupid ppl doing a stupid practice, eye roll eye roll..it’s all hokey pokey to me). This is a mommy blog, not some religious political forum, and this article was offensive. All you did was encourage those who support your views to vocalize their support and to offend those who don’t (again, not b/c of your view, but the way you said it.)
Stacey, we can’t possibly take you seriously if you say your glorious tradition has been going on for hundreds and millions of years. Ugh. The level of stupidity among these posters is second only to their obstinate support of mutilating babies. I can’t take it anymore!
Maybe it’s time for me to stop reading Babble!
Even though I share the writer’s opinion that circumcision, like many other surgeries performed on newborns, should not be permitted …
I am horrified by this spew of religious bigotry. Calling someone else’s religious practices “disgusting” is, well, utterly disgusting. I didn’t come to Babble to read such offensive stereotyping and fomenting of religious discrimination.
If you wanted to talk about the tragedy of a preventable newborn death, the necessity for even religious practitioners to exercise caution about viral contagion, the civil rights issue of the newborn being given non-life-saving surgery without consent … those issues I would be happy to read about. But this article’s tone and language are deeply offensive to me.
And I’m not even Jewish.
Totally agree Maggie – I just unfollowed Babble on FB and Twitter
Mutilation and molestation, great.
I am a Christian, I have always had Jewish friends, employers, even boyfriends. In short, I love Jewish people. It is not anti semitic to think sucking blood off a penis is nasty and that it kills babies horrifying. I wish the Jews posting on here would stop thinking the worst about everyone. It was clear in the article that the author does not think every bris happens this way. She was saying that the people doing it this way need to stop. If they do it at all they should do it the way other Jews commonly do it, sans mouth penis contact. If you think that is a bad thing to write, or anti semitic, check yourself cause you are saying its cool that babies die for no reason.
Horrible. Disgusting. Irresponsible. Leave circumcision to DOCTORS! Thats why they have MEDICAL DEGREES. To perform surgeries and other medical tasks.
I am Jewish and I’m finding the slant of this conversation weird. Seems everyone has a problem with the very rare and limited practice of metzizah b’ p, but fewer have a problem with the basic violation of amputating a part of newborn’s healthy penis without consent. Way more babies die from circumcision each year than from metzizah b’ p, so why is routine and/or religious circ still okay to you?
My son will be circumcised in a surgical way. It’s a parents choice. For anyone saying we’re not giving him a choice same goes for people who pierce a baby’s ears. Stop judging other parents you are FAR from perfect!
The “Jews” posting aren’t upset that you think that the very seldom used ritual of oral suction during a circumcision is wrong. Its more insulting that you refer to them as “the Jews” as if they are the only culture to circumcise their children. If you want your child to have extra skin to trap all kinds of germs and bacteria in that’s up to you but to denounce a covenant made with God because some people take it to far is ridiculous. You are the same hippy, no gender line, free loving, pagan, get a damn job parents who have the nerve to tell me that fixing my sons Hyperspaida is forcing him into a gender situation. I’ll tell you what, how about we compare our children in 20 years and find out just who the better parent was. Until then keep your unsolicited parenting advice to yourselves
The fact that your comment starts with “I’ve been to many circumcisions” creeps me out. Im not calling anyone out or putting down any religions BUT me as a mother would NEVER let that procedure done to my child. Its not exactly a venomous snake wound.. And judging by the herpes that the rabbi is giving everyone he doesnt exactly sound like the cleanest male.. they should get him with manslaughter.. just saying….
While I find the idea horrifying to mutilate an infant no matter what the reason is, I know that being anti-circumcision and certainly anti- this form of it does not make a person anti-Semitic. Its not only Jewish people who practice circumcision. It is recommended by the APA not to have it done to an infant and I agree. When my son was born the visiting pediatricians and our own pediatrician thanked us for choosing not to have him circumcised and told us that if we had wanted him circumcised they would have tried to talk us out of it because it’s unnecessary to put an infant through that. As for the poster who mentioned it being like piercing a baby’s ears I’m against that as well. Why mutilate an infant? You’re essentially giving them irreversible plastic surgery. Again it has nothing to do with anti-semitism, or anti-any religion or culture. People shouldn’t be criticizing Danielle, she was horrified that an infant died. Can we just take a moment to appreciate how sad that is.
I am 100% against circumcision. I feel that if God made you a certain way, then you should stay that way. Boys are born with that extra skin on the penis for a reason. It isn’t unsanitary or unhealthy. My son isn’t circumcised.
Wow, what a tragic incident. My heartfelt condolences go out to the newborn’s family, especially his mom who has just lost a child. I find the commentary very disheartening. A mother just lost her child, yet most of the comments turned into pro/against circumcision.
I just unfollowed Babble and unsubscribed as a result of this post and many of the comments.
Kate- Please tell that to the baby THAT DIED
Poor baby! How stupid and disgusting to let the Rabbi do any suctioning w/his mouth. Totally unsanitary and strange. I would never have let this occur. Maybe other mothers will learn from this tragedy.
Well, @Pamela…I certainly don’t think you should pierce a baby’s ears, either! Good grief!
A barbaric practice and if I had only known that I was putting my hours old children in danger, I would have NEVER done it. I didn’t understand then. My husband and I still have a difference of opinion on this but he also refuses to watch the videos of it being done or read what CAN happen if it goes wrong. Much like vaccinations, you THINK you’re doing the right thing until….1. you are educated differently…2. something horrible happens that you can never take back.
It does not matter if you are for or against the act of circumcision, it’s about the fact that a poor child has died due to causes that were out of the parents and child’s control. It’s unfair that these parents have to go through life knowing that their son passed away due to contracting herpes. Why do people lose sight of the main issue and take things in an entirely different direction. Society has formed us to be able to voice our opinions. If you did not like her take on the story, tell her so, but in a constructive manner and don’t automatically assume it is anti-semite in any way….Religious practices or not, most things considered unhealthy or unsanitary have been changed or modified to fit today’s society. How is this any different? People are so easily offended and defensive these days. We all have freedom of speech, but why even bother these days, considering you can’t say anything without offending someone. I’m sure I’ll offend someone with something I said….and that…is sad. It’s my take on the comments and the story, so there.
I as a mother of 6 boys are all circumcised and I did it for the benifits cleaninessand other health benifits my God Son who is not circumcised has had meny health issues from urinary infection to other thing and his mother wishes she could have had him circumcised but he was sick when he was born and couldnt , I dont critize people who do or do not circumcise their boys it is each parents choice I did lots or research on the topice before I had it done it was my choice more one forced me or talked me into it , not a Dr , friend but myself and my husband . As for being Jewish no Im not but it is in my heritage but I am a Catholic and yes we do have some issues in our own religon but I think a lot of religons do lately have something that someone else dosent approve on . I do not judge people for their religon I judge them for who they are . and meny of you wont like my comment and some of you will but to each their on
LOL at the person wondering since when Disney was against certain religions, etc. Disney himself was rumored to be an anti-semite and MUCH of the studio talent was back in the day as well. It’s in the roots of the organization. Too all the organic mommy’s out there too – guess who was the biggest bedfellow to Disney… Monsanto. So yeah, you need to get out of princess land.
As for all this other stuff, I think there are certain practices that were for a different time and they need to be updated. I didn’t even know circumcision was some big issue until a few years after my son was born. They just do it in the hospital as routine and I guess I thought everyone did it. Now I don’t think I’d do it.
BTW, I think it’s a barbaric practice whether it is done as a religious belief or by a “medical” doctor.
As a Jewish man who was circumcised as an infant and resents it now, circumcision needs to be illegal. It’s my damned body. I don’t care what my parents’ forefathers did, I should have the right to the body I was born with.
I’m very happy people are wising up and realizing boys are owed the same human rights as girls are at birth.
@bunnytwenty – Statistically, annual US male neonatal (first 28 days of life) death rates are as follows:
Circumcision: 117 (This includes all complications directly resulting from the circumcision, namely anesthesia reaction, stroke, cardiac arrest, hemorrhage, and infection.)
SIDS: 115
Suffocation: 44
Auto crashes: 8
These statistics are easily found in multiple sources and are updated and published annually.
I totally agree and my sons are intact but consider changing “how are mothers allowing” with “how are parents allowing”. It is not only decisions of mothers and it comes out a bit sexists to blame only the mothers in not protecting their children. Thanks
I’m sorry I don’t see how the author is an anti-semite. What I got out of the story: the problem lies with the mouth on the penis with an open wound. That is what this article is about. Everything about it is sick, barbaric and disturbing.
This is the main idea of the article as she states in the end:
“Surely, if a mother feels the need to circumcise her son for religious reasons, she does not need to select a Rabbi who incorporates metzizah b’ peh into the bris.”
People need to stop reading between the lines and creating something out of nothing.
I hate Disney, Monsanto AND circumcision…but not Jews.
Just nuts and it should be illegal.
Wonderful.
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I highly despised the act of sucking the blood out of the wound from other people’s private part. But that is just my opinion, and i wont be writing an article bashing other people’s religion like this. On the other hand, circumcision has been practiced for thousand of years with or without religious reason and have been safe and healthy except for few cases, just like the risk one have in any minor operations. These operations were supposed to be safe but then, something can still happen.
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When it comes to “discussing” other people’s religious practices and cultures, it’s embarrassing that people tend to use their shallow knowledge and lack of experience to disagree on anything and everything. They google on something and think that they know all about Africans, Jews, Muslims, and every single culture in every part of the world. While I understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion, please understand that opinion is not all that matters. KNOWLEDGE should come first.
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How do people missed the most important part here in this story? The main point is THE RABBI IS INFECTED WITH HERPES. There should be some regulations that the rabbi should be checked before performing this ritual etc. If people here really respect other people’s rights to practice their religions and culture, then we should have notice right away that the main point is to find the solution.
I had enjoyed reading Babble. Not any more. Why do people have to be so hateful!
Sorry to hear this. This sounds more like a Jewish not an Orthodox tradion. There are no Rabbis in Orthodoxy so far I know. This procedure should really be banned.
Do not bring up the old hiding through religion, argument. This is not a “mean old religious people” against “poor innocent victim” case. This is a case of old school thinking not quite matching up with modern safety, good health or general rules for living.
The Mishnah is the first written record of the Oral Torah. Clearly, an important book to anyone who is Jewish (I myself and not and know very little about the faith, but researched this particular topic out of curiosity for the concept…which more people should do before making judgments).
The whole point of oral suctioning of the blood is actually in PART for the SAFETY of the child. It was implied that it was oral in the Mishnah, but the removal of the blood was crucial. In fact in the Talmud, Shabbat 133b, it said that in essence the mohel (person specifically trained for the whole process surrounding this topic) who neglects to remove the blood, has risked the child’s health and should be removed from his post.
This is an argument of Orthodox v. Modern Jewish beliefs and the reasoning that the Orthodox Jews have for insisting on oral removal (very few now do), is for that reasoning; it is what was originally done. I think there is no problem with this as long as the motives of the mohel are certainly pure in all manner (they are suctioning blood out…not impossible to consider…but not what I would consider a sexual, inappropriate or otherwise related concept), the proceedings done safely and the parents to understand that it is not ORDERED by their Jewish writings; simply how it was done in the old days.
Lewis, you rock! My hubby is pretty pissed his parents did that to him and so our son is intact, as are my brothers and many friends all over the world.
This article has obviously served its purpose here on Babble…to incite an anti-circumcision “discussion.” Send some hate my way people, I am neither Jewish nor Muslim, and my boys are circumcised. So is their father. I breast-fed and bottle-fed. I co-slept.
Yes, it is tragic when something like this happens. But it is even more tragic when something happens, and it is used to stir up hate and controversy, and gets used by others to serve their own needs. Pray for the family, pray that something is done and it never happens again. Campaign for better regulations, find a solution. But these hate discussions do not help anyone.
Nothing like circumcision to bring out the bigotry. Just look at the URL for this article “newborn-dies-from-disgusting-circumcision-ritual-again. Disgusting???
“Whether the claim is a religious request or not, the physical action itself is unnatural on so many levels. Imagine, if you will, that exact scenario happening in any other situation and it not being considered a crime. People need to stop hiding behind religion to perform immoral and unhealthy practices.”
Lots of other things are unnatural: birth control, pain relief, antibiotics, and just about anything to do with blood is potentially gross. But that’s not really what it’s about, is it? You don’t like circumcision. We get it.
The rabbi with herpes shouldn’t be doing this – end of story.
Everything else is just crass and breathtakingly antisemitic. I find this far, far more disturbing that any religious ritual of any sort..
“You don’t like circumcision. We get it.”
Exactly. Now how is that anti-semitic?
The fact that you find the imagined anti-semitic-ness of this all more disturbing than the fact that a baby died speaks volumes of your values.
“As a Jewish man who was circumcised as an infant and resents it now, circumcision needs to be illegal. It’s my damned body. I don’t care what my parents’ forefathers did, I should have the right to the body I was born with.
I’m very happy people are wising up and realizing boys are owed the same human rights as girls are at birth.” I’m happy to hear your take on it, Lewis. Our family does still get a lot of flack for not circumcising our 2nd son.
I don’t believe in circumcision anyway but this is just appalling! For the love of your child practice hygienic circumcision at the very least!
Yea the fact that his mouth was on the baby’s privates is extremely disgusting, idc what religion. That is sick and disturbing. Like a previous comment stated, leave this to the doctors who had many years of training.
I’m a Jew. Honestly, I have heard of the practice in ancient times, but not in todays day and age when we have infection knowledge. What if the woman had AIDS or HIV and had an open sore in her mouth? I feel the parents are to blame in this as well as the lady performing the circumcision.
As a pregnant Jew, let me put it this way, I would have a doctor do it on the 8th day. I wouldn’t have a woman who wanted to put her mouth on my son’s penis be anywhere near my child.
Also herpes can be spread multiple ways and unless they tested her or anyone around that child, there really is no specific way of knowing how he got it. Usually herpes simplex is more related to cold sores and STD’s.
And for those who thing circumcision is mutilating a child…get over yourself! It’s done as a right of passage for a Jewish male child! You can sit there complain, but most of the people saying its mutilation are Christian so you can go take your bible and eat the pages because remember we (Jews) have been around way longer than you all. The Nazi’s were Christians too by the way..
It’s no different then the child molesters at the airport. They put on a blue shirt and a badge and hide behind “national security” in order to molest children. Makes me sick. I’ve studied lots of jewish religious stuff, and this is the first I’ve heard of this sick ritual. Pretty soon they’ll be wanting to do this $h!t at the airports to. “To protect the children, my a$$”
@ Lisa: I am a born-again Bible believing Christian. And I believe in circumcision. I am a believer in Jesus Christ. And I support and pray for Israel and the Jewish people. Why? Because God commands us to IN THE BIBLE!!! I love all people, just as Jesus teaches us to. And as far as the Nazi’s being “christians”, they may have claimed to be Christians but they definitely did not live their lives as Jesus commanded. The two greatest commandments, according to Jesus, are 1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart 2) Love your neighbor as yourself. Who is my neighbor? Well, everyone! The person I pass on the street, the man or woman in front of me in a checkout line. The people I see, read about or hear about that are hurting, attacked, put down or in pain. My gay sister. My drunk brother. All these and more are my neighbors. And I am called to love them. I am not always perfect at it and sometimes I fail, and that is when I thank God for His amazing grace. So, Lisa, I said all this to say: Not all Christians are hypocritical haters. Me and many of my friends are supporters of the real Bible, the one that teaches love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self control. And as far as me supporting circumcision, I believe that it is healthy and hygienic for the boy. Whether I am right or not, well, that doesn’t matter to me.
Mutilation or maiming is an act of physical injury that degrades the appearance or function of any living body, usually without causing death.
To you haters: next time you decide to use a word, look it up first genius. By definition, circumcision can not be mutilation because it does not degrade the appearance or function of the penis. Circumcision is simply removing the foreskin from the penis. Which can be healthy for the male as he grows up, because it reduces his chances of cancer, aids and other lethal diseases. So grow up and do your research before you start spouting off. Just because a few people in a religion decide to be stupid, does not undo thousands of years of safe, traditional godly practice.
Wow.
I am also unliking Babble on fb. The bottom line is a baby died and it is sad. I know all you self righteous women think you have all the answers, but here’s the deal…you make the decisions for your kids. If you don’t like it then don’t do it. You have no right to say a word to a parent that feels it’s best for whatever reason. It’s not your kid, not your business. Please go spread your crunchy ways somewhere else where hatred is acceptable! Babble I am disappointed in these articles lately & will no longer be a reader!
I am mortified! Who in their right mind would let anyone except a qualified physician in a hospital setting circumsize their baby?? let alone some priest who in my opinion is molesting these poor babies! like this article says religious celebrations can be great to celebrate the life of a new baby but get your child baptised! dont let some unqualified child molester cut off your babys body parts…..wow!
@Lisa the Jew…for Yaweh’s sake…the term is RITE of passage…you don’t even know from whence you speak. It’s really, really astounding.
My comment applies to every religion too! for those of you who seem to think those of us who do not agree with this ritual are being prejudice….i personally think this is wrong no matter what ethnicity, religion etc. you are! If god meant for a babys penis to be cut off he wouldnt of created the male race with foreskin! i myself wouldnt have my son circumsized but thats my choice just as it may be some parents choice to get their baby circumsized…..whatever your religious or personal views on this matter may be i think this article should be a wake up call to anyone who thought or thinks this method of circumcision was right for any reason!
I have been to more bris than I can count on my fingers and toes, including my own son’s. The mohel at my son’s bris was orthodox, we are very reform. He DID NOT put his mouth on my son’s penis. Infact, I have never see a mohel everdo that. They use a sterile tube or pipe to “suck” the blood. The man’s mouth NEVER comes into contact with the baby’s penis. My uncle, a obgyn who performed circumcisions in the hospital, said that the Mohels do a better job than the doctors. They do them even more than doctors do.
And, by the way, I am *not* a Christian. Christianity is just as archaic, anti-human as Judaism. And, now that you’ve invoked Hitler, I think this thread can aptly be considered ovah!
Suzie – you said “I hate Disney, Monsanto AND circumcision…but not Jews.”
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And then, above, you said “Christianity is just as archaic, anti-human as Judaism.”
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Now it is over. it did not take much time to show your true colors. You do hate Jews (and apparently Christians). You may hate people of faith in general, I don’t know. But you do hate Jewish people. Your statement clearly reveals what you really are. I feel sorry for your children that they are being raised by someone with such hate and prejudice in her heart. That cannot be good for any growing soul.
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While I may not liken the hatred you spread as similar to that promoted by Nazi supporters, I can liken it to beliefs promoted by other genocidal leaders who sought to murder people moved by faith and religion.
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Any time we spread hate we create problems. We never help the causes we say we love. Mostly I find people who spread hate do not love the cause. They love to spread hate and fear. It’s an intoxicating combination.
@Lisa, the Nazi’s were NOT Christians. In fact many that died in the holocaust were Catholics that were persecuted for their belief. People that were christian did join the Nazi party, but so did a few Jews. Nazis were anti religion. Your statement is way out there.
@Kaye “circumcision can not be mutilation because it does not degrade the appearance or function of the penis. Well it certainly changes the appearance of the flacid penis and it removes room for an erection, so it changes the erect penis (a condom study showed cut men are on average shorter). It certainly changes the function, as the dynamics (movement – erverting parts) are very changed. The practice amputates blood vessels and a huge amount of tissue (about the size of an index card for a man). The parts cut off are some of the most innervated parts of all human’s The nerves are very specialized and have the touch sense of the nipples, fingertips and lips. You litterally shut down parts of a babies sensory system when the parts are cut off. It is very much a mutilation. Saying otherwise makes you sound silly, naive and childish.
Jack – “In fact many that died in the holocaust were Catholics that were persecuted for their belief. People that were christian did join the Nazi party, but so did a few Jews.”
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You didn’t just really write that in all seriousness did you? I can’t believe anyone would seriously write that down and click. The mind boggles.
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Now I know you’re a nutcase. If you think she sounds niave and childish, I now think you’re something far worse. You just lost any shred of credibility you may have had. And any chance you may have had to convince me or any sane Jewish parent that circumcision is harmful enough to forgo the tradition. I’ll stick with what I know to be true and medical information that seems reasonable and trustworthy.
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You’re starting to look like a garden variety holocaust denier. But thanks for exposing yourself. I think the more hateful people post, the more they reveal what they truly are. I’m starting to feel a lot better about the country I live in. Though I’m still dissapointed Babble published this piece of anti-semetic trash.
@Kate, saying that a religion is archaic and anti-human is not saying you hate people. Some “Jews” are not even practicing Judaism…some–get this–don’t even circumcise! Fundamentalist religions have spread plenty of hate and have done more harm (see dead baby, above…) so puhleasse!!!!!!
I have to agree that hating religion is not the same thing as hating Jews (or Christians or whatever), though you could certainly say she is denegrating Judaism. You might argue that it’s just as offensive, but antisemetism is a pretty specific hatred and suspicion of the followers of Judaism- its making statements about Jews all being crooks, not statements about the religous practice. For example, it might be offensive to say that it’s stupid to believe in God, but you wouldn’t say it’s antisemetic.
Actually I think antisemetism is even broader than that and has as much to do with race as religion, but people use it to mean “hates Jews,” and neither one is the same thing as “hates religion.”
Gee Kate, you are ignoarant of history and call me a nutcase. Learn up a bit, because you are quite off the mark thinking only Jews died in the holocaust. But wasnt’t it you that said NAZIs were Christian? That is like saying communists are christian, there may be some, but such a religious affiliation is essentially at odds with the party doctrine.
Anyway, your denial makes me think of a sad story of a person my family knew that died in NY with no relatives and no one to pay her bills and bury her. She was Chech (a Christian and possiby a lesbian, but that was none of our business), not Jewish but was a holocaust survivor. We paid the bill after the group that had identified her as being a holocaust survivor dicovered she was not Jewish. I did not understand that, but your lashing out gives me some insight.
Quite a few people were killed in the Holocaust that were not Jewish. That fact does not deny anything.
Speaking of denial, male penis parts cutting is harm, even though people that harm their children deny it. The denial of loss is a powerful force that fuels the compulsion to repeat the trauma.
Only the person that ownes the penis should have any say in cutting parts off. Only the person that ownes the sensory system should have any say in shutting down parts of it. How is this fundemental human right questioned in this day and age?
I never said that the Nazis only killed Jewish people. I never said the Holocaust only involved Jewish people. But your tactic is typical of Holocaust deniers. Painting me as a perpetrator of prejudice and claiming I deny the truth of the Holocaust is bizarre. But it certainly won’t convince me that you are rational person.
If you can’t understand why your statement was so bizarre, you clearly are a nutjob or very ignorant. In either case I can’t see a reason to even consider your information good. There’s a lack of credibility.
Kate, so first I was saying things that were not true and now it is that I am bizarre and using tactics? You may not be a horrible person, but you sure come off like one. It is interesting that just as some Jewish people have pointed out that sucking on baby penis is not a common practice, I was pointing out that being a christian was not a common NAZI practice. This digression was part of the whole religion thing that I would rather stay out of. However, someone said the NAZIs= Christians and that is NOT TRUE.
I am not a nutjob, I would say you are the wacko for slamming people and name calling, particularly as you don’t identify what I said that is factually untrue. If you are not a wacko, you appear to be irrational and you certainly harm the ability for people to have civil discussions.
What is really harmful to useful discussion is this racist label or what I got labeled a holocaust denier or using denier tactics. YIKES. This sort of BS, this imposed limit on useful discussion, the calling out of people as anti-Semitic, is wrong and hurts our ability to discuss important issues of our day.
I am against people cutting off penis parts of male babies, which includes the disconnection of thousands of nerves from the brain and removes a very important part of the human. This is a human rights issue, and has nothing to do with race. I am not in any way anti any race. I am anti forced mutilation.
The next generation gets it. Not your penis, not your right to cut parts off. Maybe you need to consider if your own views are prejudiced and small minded.
@Kate, I’m Jewish and I have to say, you’re the person getting weirdly ugly here.
sounds a lot like second degree murder and child endangerment to me.
After reading all this…it appears most, have missed the point!!
This is so frustrating…just a couple of weeks before this same baby was born..most of you would have been all for brutally mutilating and ripping this SAME EXACT BABY out of his mother’s womb..so as far as that goes, you are a bunch of hypocrits.
HOWEVER, the blood sucking ritual is discusting, and should be stopped immediatly!!!!!!
How did this turn into a religious spat?? The fact of the matter is that what was done to an infant who could not even express what he wants and how he feels is now dead due to unsafe practices! The circumcision ritual that was performed was clearly unsafe seeing as how there were no sterile equipment used. If I could go back in time and decide not tohave circumcised my son I definately would because they should be able to choose what they want to have done. I had it done because I was only 15 and was listening to what other people thought, but now knowing the many dangers and risks I surely would not have it done. When religion is brought into something like this and they are telling you that you HAVE to do this it sounds more like a cult. I am a christian and I do go to church, read the bible and raise my children according to Gods word but I also reason with common sense, I will do what is best and most practical for my children as long as it is safe and will be beneficial to them, not because my religion told me I had to do it. It is not just Jews that perform stuff like this, it is all religions we hear about it all the time on the news and mostly on the internet, so not just Jews should be targeted it is PEOPLE not the religion that is practicing these unsafe ritual, they have a mind of their own and can decide what is safe or not and yet this man still chose to do so with his own mouth and w/no sterile utensils. It breaks my heart to read about things like this and then to see the many different religions brought down because of one Rabi, Pope, Preacher, Pasture, and whatever else there is out there, IT I THEM NOT THE RELIGION! They just use the religion as an excuse/cover up!
I am disturbed by many of the comments posted here. Not so much of the opinions, but in the nasty tone of how they are being said. Yes, some do have undertones of being anti-Semetic, while others are only overly emphatic in their disagreements.
Most disturbing of all, to me, is the loss of seeing, or addressing, the real crime in what was done. This Rabbi had to know he had herpes; had to know he was infectious at all times. He should be arrested and charged with a few crimes, as has been stated by another poster.
Jack, there were no Jewish nazi’s. There were some Jews in concentration camps who cooperated with the nazi’s..for self-preservation. They were hated by all.
There were some Catholic priest’s and gypsies in concentration camps also.
For the people here who are nit-picking spelling errors or exaggerations…really?!
As for circumcision itself I am personally fully in favor of it. As a nurse, I have been in the room when circumcision’s have been performed. I was surprised to find most babies don’t even cry. As a nurse, I have also had adult men as patient’s who were waiting to be circumcised. Much more traumatic emotionally and physically now. The reasons for now needing the procedure varied from having strangulation of the head of the penis, frequent infections due to lack of good hygiene and cancer. It should be up to the parent’s to decide if they want their child circumsized or not, but it should be an informed decision. It is not barbaric nor brutal.
@Riletsmom: While I am sure there are some physicians who will circumcise an “hours old” infant, I do not know of any. They prefer to wait a few days to be sure the infant is healthy.
Unfortunately, the negative tone of the article, set the tone for many of the comments here. Please try to have an open, honest discussion here…a sharing of opinions. It appears virtually everyone here agrees the practice that was performed on that baby, should be abandoned. Since it is done so rarely, it should not be lumped in with acceptable practices or rituals. Many religions have rituals which are considered to be “creepy” to outsiders. That does not mean they are wrong…just different.