Playdates with Other Peoples Husbands?
Why stay-at-home dads have it tough.
Sitting in the sandbox near our new home in London, I recently connected with a fellow American parent.
“I’m Jamie, Eloise’s mom,” I said, after our 3-year-old daughters had declared themselves “best friends.”
“I’m Ed, Mia’s mom – I mean dad,” he said, chuckling over the slip.
While our girls flung sand, Ed, a father of two, gave me the scoop on local schools, parks and other essential details (like how George Michael was caught trolling for love in the same park where we sat chatting).
We gabbed like two typical expatriate wives covering kids, spouses, schools and houses, except Ed was in fact a husband. Forty-five minutes and two celebrity stories later, I had almost forgotten about Eloise’s first ballet class. I packed up, and Eloise and I said good-bye to our fast friends.
As I panted up the hill, rushing toward dance class, my thoughts jumped to our next meeting with Ed and Mia. Then my excitement turned to cynicism. The age-old argument crept into my mind – can women and men really just be friends?
According to the latest census data, stay-at-home dads (SAHDs) do 13 percent of the childcare for working moms in the U.S., but few of my girlfriends with children have actually co-mingled with them in their regular playgroups. Among my 280 Facebook friends, only one mom, 37-year-old Valerie Stivers-Isakova, a New York-based web editor and part-time SAHM, occasionally play-dates with guys in her building.
Stivers-Isakova described her interaction with the two SAHDs she knows as “gingerly” and “scrupulously proper.” She admitted, however, that the situation could be uncomfortable.
“I don’t call [SAHDs] for one-on-one activities the way I do the moms. It feels awkward to me, too intimate, to have some dude lounging on the floor in my living room chatting about diapers and toddler feeding,” she told me.
Before finding Ed, I had never met a SAHD or pondered the predicament of play-dating with a guy. Ed is a cutie with full dark hair, a broad smile and an engaging personality; I wondered how my husband, Brian, would feel about me spending lazy afternoons at Ed’s place while Eloise and Mia played dress-up. But, once I pulled my mind out of the gutter, however, I realized that befriending a cool SAHD could also translate into a new buddy for Brian.
When Tim Maguire, 43, lost his job as a lawyer last fall, he took over fulltime parenting duties from his wife, Heidi Singer. His wife, of course, connected him with her SAHM friends. Maguire said he thought about the potential awkwardness of the co-ed play-date, but his desire to find friends for his 23-month-old daughter, Jane, outweighed his apprehension about crashing the girls-only group.
In addition to his moms’ group, Maguire is the token SAHD in a weekly music class. He has noticed, however, that he never gets invited to join the moms for lunch afterward.
“That’s not a big deal,” he said, “just mildly disappointing because I was hoping Jane would get a few friends out of the class.”
But the music moms have snubbed Maguire more directly when it’s time to partner-up for class activities. “If there are an odd number of adults that week, I am the goose,” he said. “If there is an even number of adults, then there is an odd number of women, plus me. In that case, the female goose – the one who looks to her left and her right and finds her neighbors have already partnered with someone else – gets partnered with me. Occasionally, she’d rather not and we both go without partners.”
To be honest, I’ve done the same. Three years ago, Eloise and I attended a toddler tumbling class, and I remember a couple of dads who came with their kids. At the time, I assumed that the men had taken off from work to come to the class. I never even asked them if they were SAHDs and certainly never considered inviting them for a coffee. Like Maguire, I went to those classes seeking relationships for me and Eloise, but facial hair and camo diaper bags clashed with my image of new-mom relationships.
Many dads I spoke with, as part of my recent SAHD awakening, said their blood pressure rises because of this unspoken boys-versus-girls division on the playground.
For instance, Phil Andrew, 39, board member of daddyshome.org and chairman of the non-profit organization’s national At-Home-Dad’s convention, bristles at the moniker “mommy and me” for kids activities.
“If you see a group that says mommy and me, you’re not invited. That’s how I take it,” he said, talking over the voices of his 6- and 8-year-old sons in the background.
Hogan Hilling, motivational speaker and author of The Modern Mom’s Guide to Dads, attributed SAHDs’ unease to a phenomenon he called “mother’s turf.” The situation, he said, resembles how women have struggled in corporate America against “the good ole boys’ club.”
Hilling’s advice for men is to open up. “If you want a father-friendly environment, you have to be a friendly father,” he said. “I learned how to smile more and be persistent in engaging in conversation with the women.”
As for the moms, he said, they need to “embrace masculinity and fatherhood – not try to turn dads into moms.”
Embracing masculinity inspired Lance Somerfeld, 36, founder of nycdaddysgroup.com, a 220-member network for dads, to bring a little fraternal order to the female dominated stay-at-home world. His mega-playgroup for men organizes dads’ nights out and weekly excursions for SAHDs and their kids. While he’s had positive experiences with moms, Somerfeld said he felt like a misfit when he tried to integrate into moms groups after becoming a SAHD nearly two years ago.
“I couldn’t relate on certain topics they were talking about, like going to an exercise class,” he said. “Some women would breastfeed in the middle of the discussion. I wouldn’t say it made me feel uncomfortable, but it’s not the most comfortable position.”
Somewhere between breast milk and boys nights, stay-at-home moms and dads have a lot in common, and it’s more than our ability to feel uncomfortable with each other. I’m going to try to take a cue from Ed, who accidentally called himself “Mia’s mom,” and embrace a new, more welcoming identity as an SAHP – a stay-at-home parent. I still wonder, however, how my husband will like my new friends.
I get the awkwardness a bit. Certainly, a dad might have a hard time relating to breastfeeding troubles or baby weight woes. But didn’t any of this SAHM have guy friends before they became parents? Didn’t any of these guys have female friends before?
One of the things I miss most about working is having guy friends. Of course, it wasn’t until I became a mother that it really became easy for me to make friends with other women. And now that I’m at home, my social group consists totally of other women. Which is great, in it’s own way. But I wouldn’t mind it at all if there were a guy or two in our playgroups. I like to talk about music and movies, too, and really haven’t found a female friend yet who is all that interested in those topics.
I met a SAHD at our park a while ago. He was nice, kids were in the same age range as mine. I was always happy to run into him at the park, but there’s no way that I would hang out on a playdate with him. There’s too much potential for the wrong feelings to develop, or for working spouses to be hurt or uncomfortable. If there were a larger group that included a dad, fine, and I think that it is sad when dads are excluded from larger group activities — I appreciate the levity and insight that men can add to a discussion. However, I’d rather lack SAHD friends than deal with the fall-out that might come from having said friends.
I will admit, I’m probably in the minority, but I have never understood the idea that there is a problem being friends with someone of the opposite sex. I have always had friends who are guys, my husband isn’t the jealous type, and I think it’s mean to snub a parent in a playgroup because of his gender. I love getting another perspective on parenting from either a dad or a mom. As long as his kid is nice to my kid a SAHD can come hang out at my house anytime.
One other issue is that some dads feel self-conscious about how they as a SAHD are perceived, not just by moms at the playgroup, but in general. The misperception that moms are the only ones who know how to parent while dads are just bumbling idiots can weigh on our minds, and the “mommy and me” monikers reinforce that. Plus there’s also the question of how did we became SAHD’s in the first place. For me, I lost my job, so early on when the other moms (and guys) asked, I would emphasize the fact that I worked from home as a “freelance consultant” because I felt as if I had done something wrong and wasn’t good enough to keep my corporate job or to be a stay-at-home parent. Since then, I’ve become much more confident about my role and wrote a book about this transition to help other dads.
Still, I wouldn’t place all the responsibility on moms to make dads feel welcome. To a point they should, but I’m an advocate of dad’s taking ownership of their role and demonstrating their proficiency as a parent rather than waiting for things to be made comfortable for them. We dads need to be proactive in debunking the stereotypes.
As far as whether dads and moms can just be friends, that’s a matter of personal comfort, honesty an common sense. The real question comes down to: does having a playmate for my child outweigh the potential for issues in my marriage?
I have generalized anxiety about this, about my kids and my homeschooling SAHD H, who is also kind of a non-joiner type anyway, being more isolated than they need to be. While I am off at work being all social. I know he has experienced a range of reactions from women at the playground, for example, from resistance and suspicion to obvious attraction (he’s adorable and so are the kids, of course). But nothing in between, nothing normal as would happen if I the one at the playground.Worry, worry.
I don’t get the whole “what will my spouse think…things might happen” concern. Is there really such a big risk? My disclaimer – I’m a lesbian, so I’ve never been there, but I just can’t see that every time a SAHD and SAHM get together over the sandbox, they become irresistable to one another. As for SAHDs – I would love to meet a few to spend time with. I’m a SAHM but also a dyke, and it is really tough to fit into the mommy-n-me straight women groups as there seem to be so many assumptions I have to deal with first and frankly, I also can’t get with the yoga/complaining about the husband/shopping for great deals on kids clothes chat – I can appreciate it, but I’m just not really all that good at it.
I agree with m2h and love her comment. I don’t get this whole worry thing about the spouse. If your relationship is that tenuous then you should be worrying more about that then a playdate with someone of the opposite gender. Can’t it be about just having the kids have someone to play with?!? Oh and nice to see the “Rooster in the Hen House” and “are cute stay at home dads a problem” tags, just to stir the pot a little.
Guys and Girls dont always have to end up in bed together – ofcourse there are TV shows that are DRAMAS (like Parenthood) which might show a scene or have this as a story line – but we can all get along – its about the kids anyway!
It’s so true. While I love my job, I feel amazingly guilty that my three year old son has no friends his age (as a tradeoff, he has the most amazing relationship with my husband). They have only once been invited to a neighborhood group, and the mom organizer asked me if it would be okay to invite them. They went, other moms didn’t like having a dad there, so organizer had to explain to me that there would be no more invites. (My husband did report extensive discussions of sore nipples, so it probably wasn’t the best time for him either). We’ve done Gymboree, we’ve done Soccer for Tots, we’ve done music classes, I’ve taken off work to attend these classes in hopes that I might be more approachable, but my work clothes seem to get dubious looks. We live in a supposedly progressive city in the hip new parent part of town, but it feels like the gender roles are stuck in the 1950s.
m2h and Tessasdad: One’s relationship with one’s spouse doesn’t have to be “tenuous” for one to be concerned about exercising appropriate caution in opposite-sex relationships. But considering the number of affairs that “just happen,” I think that people are stupid if they don’t at least consider what could happen. Spending time alone with someone you might find attractive, talking about your feelings and emotions, possibly complaining about your spouse — all of these are intimate activities. They don’t have to lead anywhere, but they COULD. As I said, I’d be fine meeting at the park or in a public place, maybe in a SAHD’s backyard if it were awesome enough. I just think that it’s smart to have boundaries (like only going in the kitchen if you’re in each other’s house, let’s say) in place so that compromising feelings or actions are less likely to happen. I value my male friends but I also know that I want to keep them as friends only. I think it’s the same if my husband were working closely with a woman at work — I’d sure hope that they always had the office door open, that it didn’t involve late nights or travel. Which doesn’t mean that I don’t trust my husband. But I find him attractive and smart, and other women do to, and it’s THEM that I don’t trust.
Anon, I respectfully disagree with you. Affairs don’t “just happen” and I think you’re out of line for calling people stupid just because people don’t think the way you think they should. I do agree with you on one thing though: Based on what you’re saying (spending time alone, talking about feelings/emotions, complaining about your spouse), i do think YOU should worry about it.
I’ve been thinking more about this – and I have to say, I love the idea of my daughter seeing SAHDs out and about. We are trying hard to raise her without a sense of rigid gender roles, and I think that seeing SAHDs is a missing piece of what we try to impart. I think it’s important for all kids (regardless of who’s at home) to see men in roles that traditionally were off limits. My daughter needs to know that men and women are nurturing capable parents.
I think you’re right. There is a tension between the SAHM and SAHDs on the playgrounds. I’ve been dealing with is for almost 7 years now. The fact is though that on the few occasions I’ve interacted with moms in a group setting, I’ve been less than impressed. If my kid wants to play with some other kid then that good, but it doesn’t mean I have to interact with another parent. In terms of sexual tension. No, there isn’t any. At least not with me. I have yet to be attracted to any of my kids’ friends’ moms (too many plurals in that). I too bristle at the term “Mommy and Me”. It’s a stupid term. I figure if moms want to have their little group and be exclusive then that’s fine with me because I don’t have much interest in them anyway. Like I said before, my boys can play with whomever they want. I don’t do playdates (as play should be spontaneous among groups of people) and I don’t care about pretending to like someone who probably isn’t going to last longer than the fleeting whims of my kids anyway.
Oh, and to the editors of babble, using “Rooster in the Hen House” and “are-cute-stay-at-home-dads-a-problem” (see address bar) as part of your SEO strategy is kind of demeaning and perpetuates the issues highlighted above. We dads aren’t hunks of meat for your viewing pleasure you know =-)
Wow, Keith…I feel the same way…and I’m a mom! (less than impressed with other moms, not keen on forced play”dates”, etc…) and Enoughgirls…yeah, why do women not want to talk about music and movies? all I get are complaints about in-laws, husbands and other lame small talk
This is so ridiculous. Does that mean you can’t hang out with lesbian moms either? I have tons of male friends who I would never think of in a romantic way.
SAHMs: Why not invite one SAHD you know for coffee at your favorite community coffee shop? Reach out!
There are a few SAHDs that hang out with our library/downtown playgroup every Wed and I have invited one to go to the zoo with me and my girls (and another mom). I have to admit I was glad it wasn’t just me and him all day but maybe it is because I just don’t know him all that well? He and the other two SAHDs hang out quite a bit outside the playgroup. I like having a couple guys in the mix actually.
Tessasdad: No kidding, affairs don’t “just happen.” That’s my point. Affairs happen between people filled with either hubris or naivete who let their guard down and think, “That would never happen to me.” So you continue thinking that I’m dissatisfied with my marriage and can’t be trusted around other men, and I’ll continue thinking that you’re, well, not the smartest for ignoring the possible outcome when two opposite-sexed people are hanging out together. Fair enough?
Black Sheep, a few studies have shown that lesbian women are nearly hypo-sexed, so I’d feel a lot more comfortable hanging out with a lesbian than a straight man.
And what about other people’s spouses? Their feelings should matter, too. One of my best friends is a guy, but I rarely talk to him because I know that our friendship makes his baby mama uncomfortable. So many people act as if boundaries are beneath them — “I’d/She’d/He’d never do that!” — and then they are shocked and dismayed when the worst happens. I don’t want my husband going out for drinks alone with a female acquaintance after work; I’m not going to act like having a SAHD over for coffee and brunch is any different. And besides, half the fun of playdates for me is being able to hang out with an adult I enjoy spending time with. If I don’t want to hang out with that other parent, the playdate ain’t happenin’.
i have a 2 year old and have made (just counted them) 7 dad friends since he was born – randomly, in all different places (the park, the library, the street, through a friend). no weirdness, no strange feelings – just fun playdates and good friends for my kid. is it because i live in new york city and there’s more of everything here? i just can’t imagine this being odd. maybe there’s just lots of dads in the city? who knows. i can’t imagine not having dad friends now.
when i got married, i quit my band and my male friends. i don’t think there can be friendship between the sexes without something awkward at some point… I’m also insanely jealous, and if my husband were hanging out with a woman without me, it would not sit well with me (ahem) – so i try to “do unto others”… Then again, in my tiny town, there aren’t many stay at home dads, and i’m too busy for most of the mama and me things now that i have seven children (homeschooling the older ones and diapering the baby!) … Even when repairmen come, i’m uncomfortable, and if a male friend comes by, i chat on the front porch. the appearance of evil, you know…
My husband and I both work from home so we trade-off childcare duties throughout the day/week.
My husband takes our daughter to music class and he’s befriended a couple of the moms from the class – they’ve friended him on FB, arranged playdates, etc. I was surprised at first, mostly because *I’ve* never managed to form friendships in those kinds of settings, but I think it’s awesome.
He also comes to different family events that my “mommy’s group” holds, and gotten to know many of my friends from there. Once, I was going to have to cancel a super fun playdate, but he offered to go instead and had a great time with the other moms & kids, making Valentine’s Day crafts. The other moms in the group all love him.
We’re really comfortable with each other’s opposite-sex friends … his women friends have become my friends as well, and vice versa.
Also, I can understand why Mr. Somerfeld might have felt uncomfortable while other moms breastfed in the middle of a discussion, but that’s a big reason why moms join moms groups … so they can talk to other adults while they care for their babies, instead of hiding themselves off somewhere so they won’t “make anyone uncomfortable.”
@ anon: “a few studies have shown that lesbian women are nearly hypo-sexed”
Please cite said studies – I would love to read them – paste the links in so that we can have a look at them.
You clearly do not trust your husband to be around other women and don’t trust yourself to be around other men. The lesbians who have commented here trust their partners so they’re hypo-sexed??? WTF. Offensive.
Oh, and those that trust their spouses are filled with hubris or niavete? Try honesty and trust.
m2h: Even if I had my notes from my college ethics and/or sociology courses, I wouldn’t go digging for them in storage. Schwartz and Blumenstein had the original study, which is old now (1983); I’ve heard plenty of anecdotal evidence. Dig in, if you care to. My remark was actually meant much more tongue-in-cheek in response to an earlier comment, but I have a feeling that writing that “Everyone except for teen boys and porn directors know that not all lesbians are hot and horny and have less sex than anyone else anyway” wouldn’t have gone over too well either. I forget sometimes that we’re not allowed to joke about gayness, ever, because it’s Serious Stuff. Arguing about this larger issue of trust seems pretty pointless: I contend that it’s people who think that affairs will never happen to them that are most likely to end up in an affair because they weren’t taking care. You disagree — and turn the argument ad hominem, which is pretty lame. You’re free to think that there must be something wrong with my marriage if I’m not of the mind that an affair would never happen to me or my husband. I simply consider myself a realist. Especially considering the number of people who do have affairs, I don’t think that most people who have affairs are monsters, or bad people; they’re just not careful. If you disagree, fine. If I were the betting type, though, I would put money that someone of your mind is more likely to end up in a sad place. Like I said, I trust myself, and I trust my husband; it’s of no impotance to me whether or not you believe me.
Wow, I got that women wanted to keep us SAHDs out of their club but really. I applaud the Ms. Rich for her bravery in sharing her fears and the Moms who have commented here. That said many of the comments are still justifying discrimination that you would rail against if it were levied against race or women. The excuse of fear of affair was used to keep women out of the work place and was as specious then as it is now. It is far more likely that our working moms will have affairs then their SAHDs would or could. First of all, we have more too loose (our kids and our livelyhood are both dependent on our wives). Secondly, as stay at home parents our kids are always there watching and listening. Though they may not understand what is going on nothing gets by them. Something the Moms might want to keep in mind when they are complaining about their kids and husbands with children within ear shot. Affairs don’t just happen, if you are worried that being friendly with a member of the opposite sex will endanger your marriage then I suggest working on your marriage. I have a secure relationship with my wife and consider the maintenance of our connection part of my job description as a SAHD (not to mention my role as a husband). If you are worried you might “accidentally” cheat work on your marriage. Don’t exclude other parents who want what is best for their kids and their families.
When I was working I never hesitated to go to lunch with my female collegues or employees. In fact I always made a point of inviting them. To do so is a man’s responsibilty in promoting equality in the work place and breaking down the glass ceiling. I propose the converse is true for moms in the kid space.
We SAHDs want and need your friendship. If you can’t share a bench at the park with a dad, how can you expect your sons to share a playground with my daughters?
Between my male friends who went on to become SAHDs and fathers we see regularly at various activities, my kids are exposed to plenty of full-timers who are men. My husband has no issue whatever with me hanging out with men, with or without kids in tow. If he did, he wouldn’t have become my husband because it would have been at the expense of too many valuable friendships. That being said, men with whom there was any sexual tension never really became (or stayed) close friends. Also, lets face it- I could just as easily have an affair with m2h as with Ron (and at least then my wardrobe would be expanding a bit). Are we not to have friends AT ALL lest we crazy over sexed SAHP lose all control and start having orgies in the sandbox?
This all seems very silly to me. Maybe it’s a regional thing? My husband is a SAHD and he has had no difficulty making friends with moms. They have invited him over for playdates, and I am now friends with these families as well. Maybe it’s because we’re in laid-back Los Angeles and there are a lot of other dads at the park and in all the classes. Mind you, I have taken my daughter to lots of classes and have never once been invited to coffee by another mom. I think this probably has more to do with the fact that my husband is more extroverted and approachable than I am, and very little to do with our respective genders.
This article really got me thinking about my own biases that I didn’t think I had. Thanks for a great read!
I added a link over at my kids design blog as well:http://smallforbig.com/2010/06/kidsteaset_fathersdaycrafts.html
Do you trust your husband going on a business trip with his female boss? Much the same; you’re both doing these things for “work.” If our relationships are strong with our spouses, there is nothing to worry about.
I guess it’s cool that you’re pushing past your comfort zone, but really, I don’t understand the issue in the first place. You’ve seriously never had a friend who was a guy? What kind of 21st century are we living in when people still wonder if men and women can “really” be friends? The women who feel the need to exclude the stahd from their music classes and other places, seriously need to just grow the hell up. We’re all parents, and we’re all human. Gender shouldn’t be part of the equation when you’re making friends. To act otherwise, just feels like the old playground standby of “EWWW, BOYS HAVE COOTIES!”
Of course, I’ve had guy friends and still do have guy friends today. But, all of them are part of a couple that my husband and I both hang out with/his old friends and mine. Or they are my gay friends. Otherwise, all my old close guy friends from college and the years after are distant but fond memories – not because I didn’t want to hang out with them once I got married, but we all just went our own way. So, today I don’t have any close straight guy friends that are just “my” friends that I spend time with one-on-one, and I never saw that as a problem or felt a void. I don’t think that is so old fashioned, it’s just what organically happened for me. Now that Sahds are coming into my life, it’s opened up a new group for me, and well, it made me think.
I have always had a tough time being so cute and being a SAHD. I have often wondered why I was cursed with the cuteness. If only I was ugly, then the moms would talk to me–but ’tis just a dream.
Babble. For. The. Loss. I have a ton of SAHM friends and I am cute as heck. W/E. I guess Babble needs to grow up a little bit and so does anon, seriously anon, wtf–people have affairs even when they aren’t SAHM/D’s it speaks more to their relationship with their spouse and to their moral compass then to if they are on diaper duty.
Also, I ran a Mommy & Me group for half a year–that name is lame. “Baby & Me” is the new black, pass it on.
hello there
Maybe women who are sahms, are more conservative by their very nature and thus more like to feel a male/female divide than their working mother counterparts.