Sleep Training Success Linked to Parents' Attitudes
A new study just published by Today’s Parent says that sleep training methods work better if the parents using them have the right attitiude.
This is particularly true for the “controlled crying” method advocated by Ferber and a few other sleep experts. What Today’s Parent found was that parents who feel Ok about letting their kids cry get better results with these methods:
On average, those who believed their child would feel abandoned or get even more upset if they didn’t respond quickly reported less success with sleep training. Conversely, those who believed it was OK to let their child cry at night for sleep-training purposes, and who were able to resist their child’s nighttime demands, tended to be more successful.
The researchers also found that most parents try to follow sleep training techniques recommended by experts. Night waking is a problem for almost every new family, and in general they use the same basic tricks:
- sticking to a stable bedtime routine
- structuring the day to promote good sleep habits
- some kind of controlled crying method
Parents who had their partners and friends supporting them did better with solving their sleep issues than those who were going it alone. Overall, even though nearly everyone uses these
This is hardly surprising, but it agrees entirely with my experience as a mom. I’ve co-slept with both my babies, and have never been able to tolerate listening to them scream at night. I’ve often wishes that I was less of a touchy-feely hippie Mama and a little more cool and collected about putting them down in a crib and walking away. Usually I’ve wished that around 3 a.m. Of course by then it’s far too late to transform myself into some Other, Better Mom. I’ve got to work with what I’ve got, which is a soft heart.
One little ray of light for me in their study: the vast majority of parents said their babies were calm or happy upon waking, while fewer than one in five reported having an infant who started howling at full fever pitch before they were even awake. My first kid was definitely in that unhappy minority, and those parents found little love in any sleep training technique. Apparently, sometimes, you just have to ride it out.
What’s worked for you? Did you co-sleep forever or let ‘em cry it out? How important was your attitude in getting your kid to sleep?
Photo: Brandon Baunach
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Comments Sleep training disgusts me. I hardly think the ability to let your child scream alone is a positive quality in a parent.
Many people’s experiences would contradict your feelings, Linda. Our family found the “screaming alone” didn’t last long (on the order of minutes) and after a few nights it stopped. Everyone seemed happier and better rested after the toddler was sleeping better at night. I think waking and compulsive night nursing can almost be viewed as a bad habit, especially when the kid is only nursing three or four times during the day, but every hour to hour and a half at night. I think we trained our kid to wake up a lot, and then trained her to sleep better. Not remotely disgusting in my view.
Thoughtful, supported sleep training is a way of trusting that your child CAN fall asleep without you. This study doesn’t surprise me–children can sense and take on their parents’ feelings.
Comments I never said sleep training wasn’t effective, just that it disgusts me. It works because the child gives up on expecting you to come. You may consider that a good thing, but trust many, many people do not. I think it’s a form of neglect.
I’m with Linda. Eventually, they learn to sleep on their own. I think it’s OK to let them cry for 5 or 10 minutes when they are, like 2 or older, and it’s just a battle of wills and they can UNDERSTAND the concept that its bedtime, etc. But if they still won’t go to sleep after a short little cry, you need to figure something else out, if you are a compassionate person, because something is wrong. Babies certainly should be left to cry it out. My opinion. My 2.5 YO now sleeps through the night 98% of the time.
Ugh…that was supposed to say “Babies certainly should NOT be left to cry it out.” Damn typing.
Not all babies cry because something is wrong or they need something. I have a nephew who cannot be put on the ground or down at all because he screams the minute you do. He can hardly crawl at a year because he is NEVER put down, especially on his stomach. The minute he so much as squawks he gets picked up, and if left for more than a minute or two screams like someone is torturing him. Even babies need some boundaries.
“My parenting philosophy!”
“No, mine!”
Bleh.
Comstock, I had a similar experience with the compulsive night nursing equaling numerous wakings. All I know is I’m sleep training my next one for the sake of everyone and the new baby.
Comments Sorry, ignoring your child doesn’t benefit them. It’s for the selfish parent. Why would you think you have to nurse just because your baby night wakes? Oh yeah, again, because it was easier for the parent. You create a monster then ignore and neglect your child so you sleep better. It’s disgusting. If you want to sleep through the night ~ Don’t have babies. Adopt a 3 year old or something.
Actually, I’m very selfish. I think it makes me a better mother to be a whole person, well-rested and energetic to take care of my child and be fully engaged. We do a lot of things as parents that our kids don’t necessarily love in the short-term in the interest of their long-term benefit. And to be honest, you sound very cranky and crabby. Maybe you’re not getting enough sleep?
This makes a lot of sense, indeed even the smallest baby picks up on her parent’s feelings and determination very accurately.
No need to pick on parents with different ideas about how to help their baby: every baby, and every family, is unique and every parent should go for a sleep method that works for them and their baby.
It is crucial though to make sure baby is safe: that means no crying it out for very young babies (under 4-6 months) to start with.
Hoping to add to the discussion with this overview of most common sleep methods (no cry sleep solution, baby whisperer, ferber …).
In my experience, co-sleeping with an infant provides the best sleep. You just cuddle them and nurse on demand and they fall asleep in minutes. Sometimes, it even happens with mom barely waking up. I never felt sleep-deprived due to co-sleeping with an infant. Of course, that is just my own experience. Alot depends on your physical arrangements, such as the kind of bed you have, and what your partner’s preferences are. And, you have to be flexible as the child grows. When our kid was about 6 months, we HAD to move her to her own space because she was thrashing around too much. She slept in her own large futon on the floor in her own room, and I started off the night with my husband. At her first crying, I’d go in and deal with her and then just fall asleep with her. My husband is a non-cuddler while sleeping, so I didn’t miss anything there. So much of the sleep equation really depends on a variety of personal choices and preferences. I don’t have the stomach for alot of crying from a baby, so this way worked great for us.
There actually is room for both styles in the world, without bad effects for either type of training. We sleep-trained our daughter, and after a few nights of 1-2 hours of crying she started sleeping through the night. She is a happy, affectionate child who is loving and attached to her parents and other adults and babies in her life. She goes to sleep happy and wakes up happy.
I know that the same can be said for my friends’ babies who have co-slept their entire lives.
Let’s not beat each other up for making choices that work for our own kids and our own family situations.
[...] Sleep Training Success Depends on Parents’ Attitudes [...]
Wow, LindaLou, judge much? I think the article is good–babies can pick up on their parents attitude/mood very quickly. What works for one mom might not work for another, and that’s okay.
I had all intentions of co-sleeping and my son HATED it. He screamed and screamed…and then, one night, we put him in his crib and he sighed as if to say “FINALLY”, and went to sleep. For six hours. Sometimes he whines when we put him down, but he whines himself right to sleep in five minutes or less…and I guess I deserve the Worst Mother in the World Award if that whining doesn’t really bother me. If he really starts screaming, I get him (not as heartless as I might seem…).
I’m sure our next baby will hate the crib and require all night nursing until he/she is four. The baby after that? Will probably only sleep sitting up with KISS blaring on the stereo. Every baby is different, and as parents, we just gotta survive it. Doesn’t make us bad Mamas if we put the pillow over our head for a while–it just makes us Mamas.
Ditto, Mistress_Scorpio. We sleep-trained and the training lasted a total of two nights. Night two, the crying was only 5-10 minutes (although it seemed like an eternity). Our son was sleeping though the night (10 pm to 6 am) at 12 weeks. Call me selfish, but we all were happy and well rested. I have a friend who couldn’t let her son “cry it out” and he is still not sleeping at 2 years old. Now to me, that is crazy, but it works for her and that is fine. You have to do what you believe is best.
Use your instinct. As a mother, you should recognize when a child is not feeling well, wet, hungry, needs to take a nap. There is a different sound to the way they cry or act. Use whatever method works for you or try different techniques. One way may work for one and not for another. Mine are well adjusted and never left to cry it out for more than 5-10 minutes, but we didn’t co-sleep either.
Comments Yes, I sure do jusdge people who neglect their babies. I couldn’t care less if some of you want to present something so gross as valid choice. It isn’t. It’s a form of neglect and I’ll just say it: it’s abuse to do that to 12 weeks old baby! You don’t want to hear my opinion, skip my posts.
“I’m sure our next baby will hate the crib and require all night nursing until he/she is four. The baby after that? Will probably only sleep sitting up with KISS blaring on the stereo. Every baby is different, and as parents, we just gotta survive it. Doesn’t make us bad Mamas if we put the pillow over our head for a while–it just makes us Mamas.”
…
Just wanted to see that again…exactly, JBoogie. I should probably just stay out of this…I don’t have any experience (yet) with a child that won’t just go to sleep. I can’t stand to let them cry longer than it takes to get to them, but they’ve generally gone to sleep without any real protest, and I don’t think it can be chalked up to anything other than their own personalities and luck. We had our first child sleep in our room for two nights before it was clear that we were waking (and, thus, waking *him*) every time he made a little noise…we all slept better when we moved him to another room. Co-sleeping is not something I could imagine myself doing, but I understand that it works really, really well for some.
being an obnoxious and judgemental parent is wayyyyyyy worse than sleep training and i think it’s “abuse” to role model such idiot behavior.
OMG, someone call CPS, because both I AND my babies get full nights of sleep! Oh, the humanity!
Really? Sleep training is “neglect” and “so gross”… Thinking in such extremes and being so dramatic makes for great parenting!
Sierra, we kind of got into the same thing you did — my husband (who handled the night wakings–except for the nursing part
) would be up like a shot and in our son’s room. And our daughter did great with Ferber at 8 months. Total amount of crying was like 18 minutes, spread over three nights. The boy took until 15 months, and even that required a lot of hardening of our hearts and just letting him cry a little after we knew everything else was OK. He’d escalate if left alone to cry, she’d evenutally settle herself down, which is the EXACT opposite of their daytime personalities.
[...] I have a piece up at Strollerderby this week about sleep training. [...]
I agree w LindaLou that 12 weeks is much too young for CIO…that baby doesn’t understand ANYTHING…its just wrapping up the “fourth trimester” for heaven’s sake. Have a heart. 12 weeks is still a pretty tiny baby. Seriously, I can see letting a kid who is at some age older than 1 YO cry…a bit…it really depends on the nature of the child. Before that, I think you do risk doing some damage. Maybe nothing you can see…but I think there is a crack in the bond.
I give mad props to Czg, who got her child sleeping through the night at 12 weeks with a minimum of CIO techniques. Waiting a year to try and sleep train a kid is insanity. At that point, they have got your number and then some, and the stamina to cry for much longer, making sleep training much more painful. I won’t be a martyr mama the next time around, that’s for sure. That fourth trimester nonsense can be played on the next new inexperienced mama. There’s some crack there, but it ain’t in the bond, ykwim?
Mistress_Scorpio, I love you, just for that last sentence. (And congrats on your pregnancy!) Also, my baby is going to be 1 this weekend (which I’m not convinced is possible, but that’s another post…), and we would all be miserable if we hadn’t done some sleep training when she was younger. Child can cry to wake the dead. That I hasten to add she never uses as a result of bedtime, because she knows how to go put herself to sleep without me or her dad or boob or bottle. Kids are all different and what works for me doesn’t work for someone else, and frankly I don’t care what works for someone else, but don’t go saying my kid is ABUSED for frak’s sake, because we’re all happy and healthy and sleep well. Talk about overuse of the word “abuse.”
Wow…some of you really sound pretty hateful toward your little babies. Good luck with that in the nursing home.
Yes, because every time a child wants something, he or she MUST have it, even when it is not healthy for the child or the parents. Good luck with that in the high school years.
There are so, so many stops on the extremes between extinction and nursing all night until they are three. I didn’t let my kids cry as babies not because I “couldn’t take it”, but becasue I felt it was better for their emotional and physical development to sleep with me and nurse on demand. When I nightweaned my children, they cried. But I was RIGHT NEXT TO THEM, offering hugs, cuddles, and even a song in the beginning. Then after they were used to it, they slept better. It’s not an all or nothing situation.
Sorry, couldn’t resist that last comment. Seriously, though, which is less traumatic? Realizing as soon as your body is able to handle a full night’s sleep that Mom and Dad expect this from you most of the time, or getting used to getting your way, regardless of your need for sleep and your parents’ need/preference for sleep, for a year or two and then having the rug snatched out from under you? That’s the way I looked at it, and my kids slept great (except for growth-spurt-related night terrors) from well before their first birthday, and I had enough sleep to function, too. Kids do have to learn at some point to put themselves to sleep, both at the beginning of the night and when they wake up in the middle. The nursing thing is kind of odd, too…doesn’t that teach them that food is there for comfort, rather than, y’know, satisfying hunger? Of course newborns need to eat in the middle of the night, but honestly, past six months, are you teaching your kids to eat when they’re scared or lonely by nursing them every time they wake up?
That worked for me and my kids. But, really, do you think we could look at a kindergarten class or a bunch of 20-year-olds and pick out by achievement or rap sheet which ones were raised by which school of thought? Probably not.
This article says that whatever method one uses will work if the parents have the right attitude. So, if CIO works for you, or Ferber, or Pantley’s techniques, then don’t feel guilty. I also agree that we, as mothers, need to support instead of judge one another. Maladjusted kids aren’t maladjusted b/c their parents let them CIO or not. As long as we are consistent, loving, and show maturity when we make a mistake, our kids will turn out fine. (Oh yeah, and CPS has enough to deal with!). Modeling and showing unconditional love is key. However one choses to do that is up to their discretion.
I forgot to add that we did our method of “Ferberizing” with our 2 YO. My husband made the point that she cried just as much if not more (in length of time) when we rocked her to sleep, and when she would wake up, as when we were sleep training. She eventually learned to fall asleep happy and wake up happy. However, she’s going through some sort of phase right now (she’s never slept all that well after the birth of our 2nd, moving to her big girl bed, and saying ‘bye-bye’ to binky all in about 6 months). How do I re-sleep train a toddler?!!! She cries enough for both of my kids.
People STILL don’t seem to grasp that babies are not children and that children are not mini adults…a vestige of the 19th century work-house perhaps? Let’s not let anything get in the way of our progress, our commerce or capitalism. Not even an infant. Let’s not usher them into the world gently and give them a tender, caring beginning to teach them trust and establish that mom will always be there for them, deeply in their pysche, before they can understand your words, your needs or your schedule. Because YOUR needs and YOUR schedule are so very much more important than that of a baby’s and they better get used to being second place to your work and spinning the wheels of commerce. It’s never to early to teach that. I’m going for more than your measurable outcomes of “achievement” or criminality, here…I am going for a something more special and deeper. But I can tell from these comments that that’s already been lost on most of the generation of mamas, so how can we expect it in their kids?
GP, I realize that we all think we’re doing the right things by our children, otherwise we wouldn’t be doing them, and that probably there is no swaying you to my choices or me to yours. The thing I wonder about is your willingness to impute hatred towards our children on the parts of those who do it differently. I mean, really, HATRED?? This doesn’t make you seem like a very nice person, that you refuse to acknowledge that we all love our kids and are doing what we think is best. I’ve been reading and commenting here enough to know that judgment is basically your thing, but I’m frankly shocked and dismayed that you actually think that we who sleep train our children- a concept which includes a huge continuum of strategies- hate our kids.
[...] Sleep Training Success Depends on Parents’ Attitudes [...]
Its not the choices people make that spell hatred to me, it’s the way they talk about their babies, their attitudes of contempt…”they’ve got your number” “I won’t be a martyr” “that 4rth trimester nonsense can be PLAYED on someone else”…now, the poster may have been referring to folks like me or Sears “playing” them…but it also sounds from the “they’ve got your number” like they think their babies are “playing” them…ghetto raises ghetto, I guess…and the very term “sleep train” just goes against anything good and natural, when the hell did something like *sleeping* become something to TRAIN for? you sleep when you’re tired. I’m out. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it and I’m not the one to help you get it at this point.
Maybe you get to sleep when you’re tired, but some of us have to work all day, and therefore need to sleep AT NIGHT. I’m not going to get into the working vs SAH debate, because we all know you think you’re better than anyone who prioritizes paying bills over staying at home with their kids, but the bottom line for me is that I support my family, and therefore I need to sleep. At night. As much of that night as possible. As to your point about the language people have been using, maybe they are talking that way because of the judgment intolerant people like you have been heaping on them. In this thread, we’ve seen parents who help their kids learn to sleep by themselves called: (a) negligent, (b) abusive, and (c) hateful. I would absolutely bet that the “played” language is about Sears and others.
“Ghetto” may raise “Ghetto”—-or trailer trash, or whatever disparaging term for the lower class you want to use—but I’m pretty sleep-deprived adults raising sleep-deprived babies doesn’t work out terribly well either.
Honestly, I think judgemental tends to raise judgemental, in my humble experience.
er, pretty sure…
The study of “sleep hygiene” (or sleep training) has been around for decades to help both adults and children (including babies) get more restful, effective sleep. Lots of people (babies and adults alike) have a terrible time falling asleep (hence the multi-million dollar pharmaceutical sleep-aid industry) and sleep hygiene/training is designed to help people fall asleep by practicing better daytime habits and bedtime rituals. As a long-time sufferer of insomnia, I’ve known how miserable it is to be sleep-deprived well before I became a mother and I was very intent on teaching my child good sleeping habits from a very early age (about 12 weeks). Yes, he cried a little bit (never more than the first night, which was about 30 minutes), and I wanted to go to him, but I felt very confident that I was doing the best thing for him. He was “sleep trained” (i.e. – going to sleep without a fuss and staying asleep for the appropriate number of hours for his age) within three days and, barring travel, sickness or other disruptions, has been a great sleeper ever since. Furthermore, he is a much happier, healthier, brighter child when he has gotten a full night of sleep.
Children do not always know what is best for them (and, I’m sorry, but newborns do not have some magical gift for only crying when they “need” as opposed to “want” something)…it’s our job as parents to teach them. If you really think that your infant is sleeping better in bed with mommy and daddy, then go ahead and co-sleep. For me, getting Jackson into his own crib at an early age was where he slept best and was one of the best decisions I made early in parenthood.
Amen, Penn Girl!
GP, you are beyond obnoxious. From reading past posts, I actually agree with a fair amount of your choices and with many things that you do, but, lordy, the way you talk about how wonderful you are and how terrible other people are is pretty unbelievable. I’d like to think that you’re actually interested in discussion or converting others to your way of thinking, but from your words I can only guess that you’re primarily interested in proving your superiority. Do you mind toning it down?! And regarding your comment about “hateful” language: If you don’t think that babies under a year can manipulate they’re parents — you must not have much experience with kids. Can a 2 month old? No. But, man, once kids hit about 8 months, they know tricks to get people to do what they want. I think that’s a testament to kids’ adaptability, not to something malicious, but it doesn’t change the fact that they know to act in way (A) to get thing (B).
Like many parents, we’ve done CIO and it’s lasted a total of 3 nights. After that, they sleep well, all the time. I’ve seen what happens to my kids when they miss naps or get to bed late, or wake up during the night because they’re sick — inability to make simple decisions, irritability, hyperactivity, general obnoxiousess –, and I’ve read enough FACTS about what happens to kids’ brains with long-term sleep deprivation to know that I’m doing what’s right for my kids. For us, not harming our kids and keeping them safe entailed letting them cry for 3 nights early on so that their brains will work right. Letting a kid cry for 3 nights is a far cry frombabies who are left to cry endlessly in orphanages, which CAN damage them. My kids, though, have two loving parents, and I’ll stick with the science that says sleep-deprivation is bad. If someone else wants to nurse their child thru the night, that’s their business. I might think that they’re not acting in their kid’s best interest, but it’s not my problem.
I might also say that the times we’ve tried co-sleeping, NO ONE has gotten any sleep, including the baby for whose benefit we tried it. Co-sleeping is hardly some magic solution. In our case, it caused nothing but problems.
You know what, ChiLaura…you have a really good point when you say “I might think that they’re not acting in their kid’s best interest, but it’s not my problem”…that’s really true and I should take that to heart. I guess I just sort of feel sorry for the babies and kids…but at the end of the day, it’s not for me to care for every baby or kid, just my own. I guess I just get passionate and worked up about issues I feel are important and I feel strongly about my opinion. But, yeah, I will tone it down.
I’m just getting back to this thread and as I expected, GP goes for the the ad hominems when she lacks the ability to articulate an argument. Her words speak to her own class level or lack thereof.
I’m done. I’m not going to say anything else or bite back. I really, really do not like you, Mistress_Scorpio, I am quite secure in my own intelligence and don’t need to bite back, even after apologizing, yet again, for “offense” by simply stating an unpopular opinion, so I am done. Carry on, hens!
Cry it out, dear. You’ll feel better in the morning.
Scorpio I find myself agreeing with you again…pardon me while I go tend to this hole that is ripped in the Universe…
I’ll get my interstellar strength crazy glue and meet you there, Jenny!
I am just going to say one more thing. I re-read my posts and my comments were not particularly condemning or judgy here…go back and read them. They even said CIO with older kids, to some extent, was OK…and I repeatedly stated that this was MY OPINION, to which I am entitled. There is plenty of literature out there that talks about traditional cultures where mamas co-sleep, wear their babies all day long, and nurse on-demand and how this can be beneficial. There is literature saying that its not good to “sleep train” at too young an age. Now if you people can’t handle someone stating an opinion that is different from yours, and doing so with passion, and challenging the fact that maybe you DON’T understand how babies work and what’s best for them, and questioning your expectation that a 3-month-old should be left to cry to learn to fall asleep, then tough. Get over it. These comments sections, I’ve learned, are just a big pity-party for weak women—let’s make ourselves feel better no matter how misguided our choices are and no matter how much we have to compromise…nobody is interested in any real discourse or about learning anything beyond what’s convenient for their little lives. So many of you are so very small…I do pity your children.
Meh…if you don’t see how calling us “hateful toward little babies” is judgy, it’s hard to have a conversation. And with your vast experience of nursing one child and Dr. Sears’ experience of nursing zero, you seem to totally discount other people’s experiences. Yes, some cultures co-sleep more than the US. And it worked for you, with one baby. Fantastic. What objective proof do you have that those children feel less abandoned when they move to their own bed at 2 or 3 or 4 than my kids felt at 4-6months? Where can you show me that they accomplished more in their lives? You can’t, and that’s my point.
I agree with you on some things, but come on…you’re calling healthy, fed, clean, cared-for babies “abused” and “neglected” because they go for a short time without a desire being met. Even babies have desires, and it is the parents’ job to balance those desires and preferences with the child’s health. My babies prefer not to have shots, and I don’t blame them…those suckers hurt! But, because I know better, being a grownup, I listen to them cry through the shot becuase it’s good for them. I wish babies were born with the ability to know what was good for them and only cry when they need something, but they aren’t, and pretending till some arbitrary age that every cry is communicating a “need” rather than a “desire” doesn’t change that.
Answer honestly…do you think that a 10-month-old is always needing something every time he or she cries? Do you think it confuses a child to get her cries answered one way for two years and then get an about-face? If you address those questions, I’ll not say another word about your other comments.
My first child, i didn’t sleep through the night until he was 16 mo. The doctor asked me how he was doing in the sleep area, at a regular check up – up until then i’d been chirpy and loving to show off my smart, beautiful, strong little boy – i just started crying
… i was soooooooo tired, and had been so tired for so long. The doctor explained the Ferber thing – “go in every five minutes, but don’t pick him up – just pat him, tell him you love him, then go back out for another five minutes until he falls asleep” – the next night it was ten minutes. The third night was 15 minutes, and i told my husband ‘i can’t do this another night!” It was so hard, so horrible – i think we both felt like throwing up. But then baby slept. The doctor had told me that “he didn’t know anyone who had to do it past three nights”…
That baby is still my night owl and difficult sleeper.
Later on, i babysat a little girl – it was over her naptime, and they told me “oh, just put her in a crib and cover her with a blanket – she’ll go to sleep”. I could not FATHOM that this would be the case – but i tried, and was blown away.
After that, i did expect that children *could* go to sleep – and stay asleep – and the next six children i’ve had have been good sleepers… Maybe my attitude had something to do with it – maybe it was just that he was wired that way…
Jenny, here I will address your questions:
Do you think that a 10-month-old is always needing something every time he or she cries?
Not necessarily, but 10 months is not 12 weeks, and why not teach them boundaries within your day, rather than letting them “cry it out” at sleep time. And why not let a very young child have some time in their life when they can be a little demanding and get all they want from mom. The age you cite is still quite young and I think it is more important to build the base of trust and security than independence at that age.
Do you think it confuses a child to get her cries answered one way for two years and then get an about-face?
You wouldn’t do an “about-face”. You’d do it gradually. I don’t have the time to explain the nuances to people who are already bent on doing what’s easiest for them, but I do recommend the book “Good Nights: The Happy Parents’ Guide to the Family Bed (and a Peaceful Night’s Sleep!)” by Maria Goodavage and Dr. Jay Gordon…and they discuss how to make the transition to “independent” sleeping at about 15 months, I believe it was.
Further, I am not the one who said these sleep-trained babies were abused or neglects. That’s a little strong. I perhaps agreed with what *some* of LindaLou said about sleep training a 12 week old…which I do strongly believe is ill-advised.
What objective proof do you have that those children feel less abandoned when they move to their own bed at 2 or 3 or 4 than my kids felt at 4-6months?
What objective proof do you have that they don’t? And, from the comments here, it sounds like many of y’all wouldn’t care if they *did* feel abandoned, so long as you got your sleep, right? Many times, the youngest ones stop crying because they GIVE UP believing someone will come to them. Literature does talk about raised cortisol levels and other biomarkers of stress in babies left to CIO.
Where can you show me that they accomplished more in their lives?
Again, my goal is not to raise a little cog in the wheel of capitalist (or other) accomplishment. My goal is to show my child unconditional love and make them feel safe and secure (at this age…older, then, there are some other goals). The things we do for our children aren’t just about positioning them for high accomplishment.
My. God.
And since I addressed those questions, I don’t necessarily expect or hope you’d not say another word, it would be interesting to hear replies…BUT, you or others might not because they are solid arguments against what you’re saying, and maybe you just don’t want to admit that letting your baby cry sucks…
still, I am pretty worn down on this thread so seriously, I think I really now might be done
Just going back to do some fact checking in the “Good Nights” book, and here’s what your Weissbluth has in a chapter on sleep training infants as young as four months old:
“If the vomiting is irregular and occasional, you should try waiting until after you think she is deeply asleep before checking, and then quickly clean her if needed.” NICE! Great stuff!
Other info, 5-10% of sleep trainers BANG THEIR HEADS against the walls of their cribs to fall asleep in the first few years…OK, so maybe that’s not YOUR kid, but how in the dark do you have to be to let someone convince you that it is OK and normal for a human to be banging their head against a wall?
People have told me about the tantrums their toddlers have had…they yelling, kicking, hitting themselves, banging their heads. And I am shocked. Who does that? It’s *not* normal for healthy, truly well-adjusted children. My kid, though a normal toddler in that she will pout or cry and express displeasure if she doesn’t get her way, doesn’t go to these bizarre extremes and I believe it is because she doesn’t get to that deep, insane level of frustration because she has been raised to know that her needs will be met and that she is cared for.
Sorry I mis-read this question of your, Jenny, asking “What objective proof do you have that those children feel less abandoned when they move to their own bed at 2 or 3 or 4 than my kids felt at 4-6months?”
I think anyone can go look up different developmental stages of children and read what they can understand at various ages and learn that they actually welcome independence, when they are healthy and well-adjusted at older ages…they like “being a big kid” maybe helping to choose their bedding, getting close to a stuffed animal, having a bedtime routing where there are stories then they are on their own, etc…you just can’t, developmentally, do that with a 4-6 month old…you know that’s true. Why do you persist on being in denial and acting like you don’t know the difference between a 4 month old and a 4 year old?
I wouldn’t potty train a 4 month old, either…
Who needs CSPAN? This is as entertaining a filibuster as I’ve ever seen!
http://xkcd.com/386/
GP, for pity’s stupid sake, I wouldn’t potty train four-month-olds because they are physically incapable of using the potty. A six month old is however physically capable of sleeping all night without eating, and it’s healthier for him to do so.
I’m not in denial, any more than the doctor who gave me the basics of sleep training. She and I DISAGREE with you and Dr. Sears. To recognize that two medical professionals and two laypeople can disagree does not mean anyone is in denial. In means that there isn’t at this time, a one-size-fits all approach to parenting.
As far as the tantrums you describe, show me a study that connects self-destructive behavior, at any age, with proper sleep training. I’ve seen that behavior in a child with RAD who was left literally 24 hours straight with a bottle in the crib and a filthy diaper, but not from children who learned at a developmentally appropriate age to go to sleep on their own My kids certainly never experienced those tantrums, and the only biter I had back in the ages when I babysat was a child who slept with his mom till age 2. He was a little shit for a few weeks when his mom finally moved him to his own bed, she warned me about it. My kids got the picture that night time was for sleep, not eating and cuddling, in a few days because I didn’t let them get used to any other way. I would’ve rather cuddled my babies all the time but that wouldn’t have been good for them; they needed to sleep and so did I. My kids recognized their independence and picking out bedding when they moved to a toddler bed, too, so I honestly don’t get what you’re going on about.
As far as the babies stopping crying and going to sleep because they give up, well, yeah. If you think only with emotions, that’s horrible, but if you think rationally, it’s not. The baby accepts that Mom is not coming, but if he is still clean and has a full belly, he’s fine with it and goes to sleep. The baby learns that crying doesn’t mean he gets what he wants—that’s a good lesson, though it’s often a tough one for parents to teach. To me, a certain amount of pain is part of life, get it over with already. Rip the damn band aid off and be done with it.
I’m glad cosleeping works for you. I know perfectly well the difference between a newborn that NEEDS to eat at night and an older baby who NEEDS to sleep, and it works well for me.
Almost unrelated—how in the world did you keep your baby from rolling and crawling all over everywhere when she slept on a futon? My kids would’ve woke up in the middle of night and gotten into everything.
I guess she just SLEPT on the futon because she was TIRED and wanted to sleep and nobody forced her to be in a place she didn’t want to be in, or sleep when she didn’t want to. There is a gate to the door of her room so that now, and at crawling/walking age, she would be confined to her room, which is baby-safe. I also have a baby monitor, which I keep on at night, and also our room is right next to hers, so that when she gets up in the morning now, and calls to us that she wants to get out, we can go get her. Sometimes she calls for me to come in to cuddle or read a story before she wants to get out.
Sounds like you have an easy baby…more power to ya. My kids did fight sleep from time to time, or they just woke up before I did sometimes. And, with there being two of them, sometimes one would wake up the other and they had gates figured out (one would stand on the others back and fling himself over) well before 15 months.
[...] imbalance has turned sleep into a luxury item few of us can afford, even when we do get our kids to sleep through the night. Over a third of parents are routinely sleep-deprived. And it’s no wonder, when our work and [...]
Well…I have always said, with twins, all bets are off on the AP stuff. It’s a whole different ballgame, and frankly, I don’t know that I could hang. The universe/god whatever only gives us what we can handle…and it must know I could not handle twins.
I have to say, that is crazy that they would work together to scale the gates! How can you win against THAT? : )
Easy…I kept them in cribs! They didn’t try to get out of their cribs. They slept or babbled in them, but when I tried to put them in their room with the gate so I could put together a bookcase, they learned the scaling the gate trick. Monsters.
Honestly, I wonder why people spend good money on studies like this. People succeed more often at things they think they can do? No kidding! The same could be said of learning a second language, climbing a mountain, or eating 30 hot dogs!
Also, GP, I don’t have a horse in this race but it was funny to read your arguments that a baby can’t understand an adult sleep schedule, but that forcing a baby to abide by an adult sleep schedule somehow prepares them to be a cog in the capitalist machine.
On a slightly different topic: What’s with all the hate for infant potty-training? At least Jenny and GP seem to be able to agree on that. I don’t get it. Cavemen-babies weren’t shittin’ their kickers as infants; babies today in China and Africa are potty-trained wel beore their first b-day. I don’t get why so many people say that it’s “nt possible,” because, obviously, it is. Having a 3.5 y/o who still refuses to poo on the pot, I sure I wouldn’t have waited for “signs of readiness.” As it is, he’s only pee-trained because my mom gave him little choice about sitting on the toilet. Definitely not child-lead!
Sorry for typos. My computer has some weirdo lag sometimes when I’m on-line.
Ugh. Read my first above as “I sure *wish* I wouldn’t have waited…”.
I think alot of the blanket condemnation of EC comes from ignorance. People just assume we’re fast-tracking and doing it the way you would with a toddler, rather than educating themselves about what it really is first.
As for CIO, I wouldn’t. I didn’t. I won’t ever. In some circumstances I do think it’s cruel (e.g. when it’s done with young infants, or done improperly/inconsistently to an older child). In others I think it may be a good fit for a family and beneficial if done responsibly. I think it’s a fine line. I do cringe and judge when I hear things like “My wife and I have the bug the little guy had last week, and man, it sucks! I’m almost sorry I made him CIO all night if he was feeling like this!” or when I hear about my nephew’s new girlfriend (16 years old) who refuses to get up for her 6 week old preemie at night, because her mother told her it was good for the baby’s lungs (this child was born with a collapsed lung, for god’s sake). Those stories make me sick. The Facebook posts people make about listening to their child CIO make my stomach turn. The posts about teaching a 3 month old “independence” break my heart.
We only realized last month that my son (2) still has periodic pain from his reflux that he had as an infant. All I can say is that had I let him cry it out at any point, I can’t imagine the guilt I’d have now at realizing I’d left my baby to cry in pain alone. As it is I feel immense guilt at not knowing the cause of his poor sleep, and I cuddled him through every fussy night. So that’s why I wouldn’t ever do it to one of my kids. You’re experience is different, so your opinion is different. I’m just being completely honest here in saying that CIO saddens me because I feel that all too often it’s done improperly or abused.
To clarify: when I say I think it’s cruel when done to young infants, I mean infants who don’t yet have the capacity to understand that mommy or daddy are coming back, and those who aren’t yet developmentally able to go long stretches without food or drink.
Eric, you do realize that every topic eventually comes back to the evils of capitalism, don’t you? In fact, that’s why my babies weren’t potty-trained by 1 year….the evil capitalist Huggies Baby!
Seriously I hadn’t even heard of babies being diaperless untill three of mine were potty-trained. I’m still comfortable with the assertion that a four-month-old cannot be ‘potty-trained’ in the way that a toddler can, though I was a bit intrigued by it. If it works for y’all let me know….I’ll wish you well and buy stock in cleaning supply companies instead of diaper makers.
When a child–ahem BABY–that young is “potty trained” its not the child who is potty trained, it’s the parent who is trained to watch for signals that the kid has to go and then places them over a pot or bush or something. And, since modern parents can’t even be bothered to be so attentive to take the time to gently ease their babies into sleep or to go to them at night if they’re wailing, I sure don’t see how they’d be so attentive to notice the subtleties of when they have to go to the bathroom.
As far as capitalism goes, I have no big grip with it if it remains in check. At this point in our history, it is not in check. People are more concerned with making money than caring for their kids. They’re more concerned with making primal infants conform to Western society’s schedules and standards than letting the infant ease into life in a more healthful way. Hurry up and train them to keep a schedule…blah blah blah. That’s what I mean. And all the talk about showing whether CIO detracted from later *achievement* indicates too strong a focus on *achievement* in thinking of how we care for infants instead of building a strong foundation of more primal things, like security and trust.
When a child–ahem BABY–that young is “potty trained” it’s not the child who is potty trained, it’s the parent who is trained to watch for signals that the kid has to go and then places them over a pot or bush or something. And, since modern parents can’t even be bothered to be so attentive to take the time to gently ease their babies into sleep or to go to them at night if they’re wailing, I sure don’t see how they’d be so attentive to notice the subtleties of when they have to go to the bathroom.
As far as capitalism goes, I have no big grip with it if it remains in check. At this point in our history, it is not in check. People are more concerned with making money than caring for their kids. They’re more concerned with making primal infants conform to Western society’s schedules and standards than letting the infant ease into life in a more healthful way. Hurry up and train them to keep a schedule…blah blah blah. That’s what I mean. And all the talk about showing whether CIO detracted from later *achievement* indicates too strong a focus on *achievement* in thinking of how we care for infants instead of building a strong foundation of more primal things, like security and trust.
sorry for the double post…all of Babble’s ads and traffic metrics make for slow post uploads so I hit “speak” twice
All of you have such persuasive posts, i don’t know whether i am for or against sleep training!
I have twins, and I consider myself an AP type. We coslept, I nursed on demand 24 hours a day until they were 16 months old, and when they moved to their own room, I responded to their cries immediately. I still do, and they are 3 years old now. While they sleep through many nights, there are night when they each wake up a couple of times. I wonder if they would be better sleepers now if I hadn’t always responded to every whimper when they were babies, but I can’t do it over with these exact twins so who knows. Maybe I never helped them sleep well independently, but I did things according to my personality and philosophies. I guess that’s all anyone can do.
It is interesting, My oldest was a difficult sleeping in the beginning, and then settled down at about 12 weeks and started sleeping through the night (12 hours) until he was about 6 months and outgrew his swaddle. Then he had trouble sleeping, so we did a modified CIO. It lasted 3 days and now he is an excellent sleeper. 12+ hours a night wakes up happy, goes to bed as easily as any other 5 year old. Yes he is active, but no more so than any other 5 year old boy. My daughter on the other hand, had severe reflux, was early and was in the NICU. So she had trouble from day one sleeping. I was uncomfortable letting her cry since I didn’t know if she was in pain due to the reflux. so as a result, I went to her at every little cry. As a result she is now 3 and a horrible sleeper. She still wakes up several times a night every night. She has gotten so used to me coming to her that she now can’t settle down, unless I go to her, turn her music back on, and give her a cup of water. I wish I had been more willing to let her learn to soothe herself. She very obviously doesn’t get enough sleep at night, and can be difficult and grumpy during the day. We couldn’t have co-slept since she is a very light sleeper. She wakes up if we flush the master bath toilet, with the bathroom door shut, our bedroom door shut, and her bedroom door shut. And I do believe it all could have been prevented if I had let her go, even just for a little bit. (I am talking 30 min. max, not hours upon hours.)
My point – Don’t judge others until you have walked in their shoes, you don’t know what they are dealing with, or how you would react in their position.
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The whole idea of sleep training is preposterous. Humans sleep when they are tired. Sleep training is for adult convenience, not for the child.
I co-sleep and would never let my child cry without being comforted, just so he would fall asleep. Do I want my kid to be well rested? Yes. Do I want my kid to finally go to sleep to give me some adult time? Sure. Am I willing to let them cry, and feel uncared for and face possible brain damage (Cry it Out for prolonged periods does that), Hell NO!