Who Is Really Owed an Apology Here: Ann Romney or Hilary Rosen?
Is Ann Romney really the victim in the latest battle of the Mommy Wars?
If you’ve been in a coma for the past two days or were on vacay in a remote part of the world (or dreamt you were on vacay while in a coma), you may have missed the news that Democratic strategist Hilary Rosen fanned the flames of the Mommy Wars when she told Anderson Cooper at CNN that Mitt Romney’s wife Ann Romney has “never worked a day in her life.” Mrs. Romney, a mother of five, fired back on Twitter, “I made a choice to stay home and raise five boys. Believe me, it was hard work.”
I had the opportunity to appear briefly on Fox News this afternoon on a panel with other mothers during America Live with Megyn Kelly. And what I told America when I was asked my opinion about this debacle is that while I think Rosen’s words were chosen poorly, I don’t want to have to feel sorry for some rich lady who has five kids, five maids and six houses. I’m not saying Ann Romney hasn’t worked hard in her life, because she’s got a husband who requires unzipping every day, and that would be a huge burden on anybody.
What I didn’t get to say on air is that I totally respect a woman’s right to choose to stay home if that’s what she wishes to do. But let’s be honest here and not deny that there’s a difference between a true choice – a sacrifice, even – and a luxury. Many women in this country stay home, making a financial sacrifice in order to raise their children. Others stay home because the reality is that the cost of childcare makes it prohibitive to go out and work. (As my friend Meredith Morgenstern Lopez just said to me, “We weighed the cost of full-time child care versus how much I could actually be expected to make if I went back to work and it almost evened out.” I was in the same position when my daughter was born.) But when you’re a millionaire, staying home isn’t really a choice. It’s a luxury. It’s almost an imperative. I mean, who wouldn’t just lounge around all day if they could afford to? I’m not saying Ann Romney isn’t an accomplished woman; I’m sure she’s done lots of charity work, and God knows she’s had plenty of time to read. But nobody wakes up from a nap on their yacht and says, “This ennui is killing me. What I really need is a job in retail.”
Ann Romney resents the accusation that she can’t relate to regular folks, and I understand that. After all, rich people don’t like to be told they can’t do something. But honesty, Ann, you can’t relate. Mrs. Romney insists, “I know what it’s like to struggle. Maybe I haven’t struggled as much financially as some people have,” she said. “I can tell you and promise you that I’ve had struggles in my life.” That’s certainly true; Mrs. Romney has battled both breast cancer and MS, a fate you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy. But if you are going to battle two crippling diseases, being a millionaire with access to the world’s best healthcare certainly equips you to do it. What about those of us mothers that are working and are still uninsured? (Points finger at self.)
Let’s get down to brass tacks, here: it’s clear that Rosen, when she made those comments on CNN, wasn’t trying to insult SAHMs or suggest that SAHMs don’t work. Rosen’s comment wasn’t about SAHMs, it was about Ann Romney being a child of privilege. If you look at the second (and so far fairly ignored) part of her commentary about the Romneys, Rosen said, “She’s never really dealt with the kinds of economic issues that a majority of the women in this country are facing, in terms of how do we feed our kids, how do we send them to school, and why do we worry about their future.” That’s not conjecture, that’s a fact. And it’s not just SAHMs that have been offended in this crossfire; moms of all stripes and even my childless friends have expressed outrage about Ann Romney’s assertion that she raised her kids at all, given that she has had an immense staff to do all of her dirty work. As my friend Lisa Germ so astutely put it:
In one of Ann Romney’s quotes she mentioned how difficult it was to manage the staffs of several homes, including several NANNIES…I have serious doubts that she ever changed a diaper or wiped any of her kids’ asses or noses. If she was a stay-at-home ‘mom’ and had a staff of people to cook, clean, grocery shop, do the laundry and yard work, clean the pool, why did she need ANY nannies? She would have had the luxury to fully devote all her time to her children. They are SO out of touch from what the AVERAGE person has to endure it’s disgusting. It’s like listening to the Queen of England talk about how difficult it was for her to be a working mother. Give me a break!
Now, to be fair, I can’t find an Ann Romney quote where she talks about managing nannies, and according to the International Business Times she didn’t hire any. Additionally, none of us was there while Ann Romney was raising her children, so I suppose it’s not fair to make assumptions about what body parts of theirs she did or didn’t wipe, but … it’s supremely clear that Ann Romney’s experience with motherhood is vastly different than that of most American women. (It has been confirmed that the Romney’s had five maids in 2010.) And Rosen was trying to speak for the American women who simply cannot afford to stay home, even though they might like to.
An extremely important point that I think has been largely missing from this discussion was thankfully brought up yesterday by Erica C. Barnett at Publicola. Barnett writes, “How many times have Republicans demonized single black or Latina moms for “leaching off the system,” for being “welfare queens” by having babies out of wedlock? If Romney’s decision to have five kids and stay at home to raise them is a “choice,” it’s a choice Republicans would deny to low-income and minority women, precisely because of their lack of privilege.” Boom. I certainly couldn’t have said it better, and honestly was so distracted by the media’s “Mommy Wars” angle on this issue to even think about the rights of poor mothers at all. In this country, of course, poor people don’t have the rights that rich people do. Ann Romney needs to admit that growing up rich and marrying even richer is what has given her the right to choose “career motherhood.”
Judith Warner for TIME and Ruth Markus at The Washington Post hit the nail on the head when they call this an issue of semantics. Warner writes, “Rosen’s only real fault, in the Anderson Cooper exchange, lay in forgetting to use the politically correct phrase “work outside the home” instead of the politically toxic word work to describe the remunerative activity Romney didn’t have to engage in.” Because if Rosen had said work outside the home, what would Ann Romney have countered with? She may have countered with the same “I chose motherhood” argument, but it wouldn’t have packed the same punch.
The good news is, women aren’t dumb enough to fall for this distraction tactic. Women of every political stripe agreed on the Fox panel today that we don’t want to be pitted against one another. Ann Romney has a right to do with her life whatever she chooses, but she shouldn’t try to paint herself as a woman who can relate to the plight of the average broad. If the Romney’s are going to gain any level of likability, they’re going to have to admit sooner or later that they’re filthy, stinking rich and that even though they can’t relate to the rest of us, they sure do know how to boss us around.
Photo via Flickr / by Gage Skidmore
Here’s the link to Ann Romney’s quote about nannies.
http://www.freewoodpost.com/2012/04/12/ann-romney-its-hard-work-micromanaging-a-full-staff-in-multiple-homes/
Your friend Ms. Gern would be wrong. When the Romneys’ oldest son was a baby, the family lived very modestly in a basement apartment. She had a babysitter for him while she was in class finishing her college degree, but no full-time nanny. The multiple houses with household staff came much later on.
I think you and the other lovely mothers hit the nail on the head over at Fox News – we’re all of us tired of this “Mommy War” the media perpetuates between moms who work outside the home and those of us who stay home with the kids all day. I don’t know a single friend of mine who is a mother who works outside the home who resents me for staying home; and vice versa. Perhaps, like one mother on the panel mentioned, it’s time for all of us to set aside our political labels and stand together to say, “Look, we’re ALL overworked and underappreciated and let’s talk about why that is and what everyone can do about it.”
Rosen owes us all an apology for her part in SOPA. She probably owes the Obama campaign in general an apology, as her foot-in-mouth problem has definitely not helped much.
But to Mrs. Romney? Eh, I’m gonna say no. They’re both big girls; they can handle critiques of each other’s choices. No, Ms. Rosen shouldn’t have to feel “sorry” for Mrs. Romney, but not because Mrs. Romney is rich (they’re all rich in politics, aside from Alaskans who get labeled as grifters and trailer trash). Ms. Rosen is a millionaire, herself, hardly more qualified to “relate” to us average/normal working moms, and she actually is an advisor, not a spouse that gets brought up tangentially in interviews to show what a good spouse the candidate is (which is clearly what happened when Romney mentioned that his wife says women are concerned about the economy).
Really, this is amazing. It’s true, whether Ann Romney or my neighbor’s dog said it…women are concerned about the economy. But instead of talking about that, we’re worried about whether Ann Romney had nannies!
Great points, Jenny. I wanted to talk on Fox about mandated paid maternity leave, but I knew we’d never get there. When I spoke to Debbie Wasserman Schultz even she said she had no idea where the administration stood on it, and only referred to the FMLA as some kind of saving grace brought to us by the Dems. Barf.
I want to steer clear of the heavy politics surrounding this debate. This is most definitely a classist problem. However, it has ignited the age old Mommy War of “Whose job is the most difficult?” It is the stay at home mothers versus the working mothers. I talk more about this war here:
http://www.themommypsychologist.com/2012/04/12/mommy-wars-whose-job-is-more-difficult/
Well said.
I’ve been watching this debate on TV these last few days and it’s so absurd. I happened to be watching Anderson Cooper on CNN at the moment that Ms. Rosen said those words and I agreed with her – I got the spirit of what she was saying – work as in working outside the house. And I agreed with her. It’s hard for Mrs. Romney to relate to the average working middle-class mother.
The whole thing has been blown out of proportion and is ridiculous when we should be focussing on the real issues here.
I’m a die-hard Democrat and not a fan of the Romneys. That being said, I don’t think you have to BE something to understand it. I don’t have to work 3 jobs and I’m not a single parent, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand or appreciate the plight that comes with those things. I’ve never had cancer, but I can still be sympathetic to someone dealing with the devastation of the disease. I think Hilary Rosen’s comments were taken out of context, but was the point she was making actually that much better? You don’t have to say that Ann Romney’s so rich that she doesn’t understand poor people, but you could easily make the argument that Mitt Romney supports policy change that would negatively impacts poor people and avoid the whole War on Women BS.
I wouldn’t say Ann Romney worked “hard” raising her boys, “kinda hard” maybe. Running a staff of people who do all the HARD, EXHAUSING, MIND NUMBING, REPETITIVE work for you is not hard work.
Very upper class women, especially in Ann’s generation, didn’t always have the “choice” to work even if they wanted too. Many were expected to stay home, help out in their children’s schools, their church, various charities, entertain, and ensure that all household related stuff was taken care of so that the husband didn’t have to deal with any of it and was free to focus on his high powered career. I wonder if those expectations and the fact that their contributions to their household are what allow their spouse to have such an incredibly demanding job were what made some women who had lives like that speak of it as a career/work?
PATHETIC NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST PLAIN PATHETIC!! SHAME ON YOU!!
Why Ann should be punished with all these negative criticisms for being the wife of a rich, intelligent businessman? Yes, you can say she has all these nannies whatsoever, but you can never deny the fact that she’s the one who raised her kids physical, mental, emotional, social, spiritual well-being! Do you really honestly think that with such kids she has they would grow into decent people if nannies were the ones raising them??
Next time you write, don’t just go out there blah blah blah with your irrational, unexamined, THOUGHTLESS topics!
Hi Jo,
It’s clear that this post is anything but irrational, unexamined and thoughtless. Just because you don’t agree with my opinions and assessment doesn’t mean you should tear me down, which is, oddly, I think, your point. However, no one is trying to tear Mrs. Romney down, simply to tell the truth. And to your point about children who were raised by nannies turning into decent people: Ann Romney was raised by a nanny.
Being a mother is challenging.
If you stay at home, your finances are more likely to be strained, you are dependent upon a single income stream. You are responsible for cleaning, cooking and child care. 24/7.
If you work, your finances are strained while your children are not yet school age, you struggle to juggle conflicting needs of work and children (getting the kids to school, after school care, sick child care, etc.). You are responsible for cleaning, cooking and 16 hours of child care during the work week each day.
It’s tough. Money makes it easier.
Ms. Romney needs to shut up.
” If she was a stay-at-home ‘mom’ and had a staff of people to cook, clean, grocery shop, do the laundry and yard work, clean the pool, why did she need ANY nannies? She would have had the luxury to fully devote all her time to her children.”
/
Thank you, Lisa Germ. I’m a SAHM and this comment perfectly illustrates why Ann Romney’s attitude is insulting to people who’ve made sacrifices to be at home with their young children. It’s actually terribly sad how clueless she really is.
Hilary Rosen simply used the wrong figure of speech. In hindsight, she should have said * never worked outside the home* instead. Then we would be spared this inane conversation. I certainly don’t think anyone is *owed an apology.* Oh, brother! I’ve been a working mom, a SAHM, and a WAHM. I wish Ann Romney would STHU, personally, because she essentially doesn’t understand the financial struggles, of well, anyone at all.
PATHETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did someone just call ROMNEY (Mittens) intelligent ?
JUST PLAIN PATHETIC!! SHAME ON YOU!!
Regarding the “worked” vs. “worked outside the home” argument, I still don’t think that’s right. For one, Mrs. Romney has worked extensively outside her home, just not for pay. Her work with the mentoring program Best Friends and other charitable endeavors were certainly work, and I daresay they exposed Mrs. Romney to more average/normal working mothers than Ms. Rosen’s paid work for the RIAA, punditry, and lobbying.
But none of that really matters in the long run. Ms. Rosen was setting up a strawperson (the argument that Gov. Romney was being advised only or mostly on ‘women’s economic issues’ by his wife) and then knocking it down by saying that Mrs. Romney is unqualified to offer any advice on the matter. Really, first of all, Gov. Romney was saying no such thing, only mentioning in that folksy “I just said to Ann the other day” way that candidates are pressured to use (that’s a whole ‘nother problem with politics) what his wife heard from women on the campaign trail. Second, even if Gov. Romney *had* been saying that his wife advised him, in a meaningful professional way, that the women she encountered were concerned about the economy, the message itself—women are concerned about the economy, and some women are worried about Obama’s fiscal policies—wouldn’t be wrong, and it wouldn’t take an economics degree or a paying job to recognize that! Instead of talking more about Obama’s fiscal policies vs. Romney’s, she veered off talking about whether Ann Romney was “qualified” to even say anything. Shooting the damn messenger.
True. Very true. I don’t disagree tho that the Romney’s don’t really get Americans. But yeah, that’s not the point. That’s negative campaigning, I guess, in the end. It’s unnecessary, or at least ideally it should be. But that’s all anyone does now. Obama has risen above much of it, at least in comparison to most politicians. I guess that’s why the Obama’s came out and disassociated themselves with Rosen’s comments so quickly.
Have any of your ever been a manager? Was it an easy job? Did you ever think to yourself, “Jeez, it would be easier if I just did that myself than try to get them to do it right?” No? Well have you ever “managed” your kids? Have you ever said “It’s easier for me to pick up after them than to get them to do it right?” No? Could you write a parenting book for the rest of us?
All I’m trying to say is that managing employees who take care of the “day-to-day” details of your home(s) is probably not the sunshine and happiness picture most of us normal people think it is. I’m sure she still had plenty of work, worry, and responsibilities in being a part of her large family. Why do we have to engage in class warfare and let all these people divide and conquer us? Let’s give it up. There’s always someone prettier than you, uglier than you, fatter than you, thinner than you, healthier than you, sicker than you, richer than you and poorer than you. Get over it. Just do the best you can with what you have. While you’re at it, vote for Ron Paul…then you won’t have to worry about Ann Romney and her gazillion dollars!
Let’s talk about privilege. I have had the privilege of becoming a mother to two boys. I’ve made the choice to stay home and raise them. It is hard. It is a financial sacrifice. Childcare costs are high. But it is a privilege. Too many people do not get that privilege comes with responsibility. Too many people have a modus operandi of entitlement, which comes with no responsibility. They have children when they have no means to handle the responsibility of this greatest of all privileges. It boils down to making poor choices. It’s about selfishness and entitlement without thinking about the consequences. This devalues the great privilege of what it means to be a mother, because it devalues our children. Having children is not a right. It is a privilege and then a choice.
Any woman can get pregnant. Social or economic status does not determine that. Certain people are just more equipped to deal with that responsibility. Perhaps it is those that are not prepared to handle that responsibility that privilege comes with are infringing on the rights of those of us who are.
If you struggle to provide for yourself, why would you do yourself and any children the disservice of adding them to your struggle and burdening them with your struggles?
If you would like to have the privilege of being a SAHM, why do you choose live beyond your means? Why do you rack up debt that is out of control? Why are we such a consumerist society?
We place value on the WRONG things my friends. We as a society want it all, and we want it all NOW. We are all victims of our selfishness and need for instant gratification and our children suffer the most.
Your argument boils down to stereotypes on class. It turns the war on moms into the war on class and forgets the privilege of children comes with great responsibility.
buggablue – Your argument that having children is a privilege is false: having children is a biological imperative. It’s a natural part of life as a human being, as an animal on this planet. True, not everyone does have children, but we are all built to reproduce, rich or poor. Should we sterilize those who you think can’t handle parenthood? And also, you don’t seem to understand what goes on in the lives of people who struggle – you know, the Republican line of “personal responsibility” and “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” is total bullshit and I can say that with 100% assuredness now having seen my life from all sides. People who are born into dysfunctional homes and/or poor homes are not raised to be equipped to function on their own in this uber perfect way that you command. You can call that a victim mentality all you want, because unless you’ve lived it, you’ll never understand. I know the kind of work I’ve put into my life to get out of that sort of situation, I know how hard it’s been and I consider myself lucky to have been able to do it. You are stereotyping poor people in your comment as much or more than I’ve stereotyped the rich in this post, because, as many commenters have pointed out in the past when these types of issues crop up for discussion, not all poor people are ill-equipped to function, either.
Uhm yeah, you don’t have more kids than you can afford. Is that so complicated? If daycare is good enough for middle class kids, it’s good enough for poor kids!
http://mamameyeah.blogspot.com/2012/04/practice-what-you-preach-do-we-value.html
There’s plenty here to think about and agree with but the basics were all covered as far as I’m concerned. Ann Romney doesn’t have any idea what the majority of SAHMs or SAHDs deal with on a daily basis. Maybe she did once when her oldest was in diapers but she didn’t say that did she? No, she focused on the fact that she raised all five of her kids and I think that argument has already been shown to be very weak. She’s probably never considered whether her kids piggy bank was a good source of grocery money, I doubt she’s ever struggled over which crappy shoes to buy at KMart for her toddler’s ever growing feet, nor stood in a Goodwill and wondered if she could add some ruffles by hand to some too short 2T jeans for her 3T toddler. And I’m certain she’s never sat down with Mitt and figured out whether her contribution to the family as a SAHM makes more sense economically than what she could bring home in pay. It’s ridiculous how out of touch the Romney’s are.
Wow! There’s a whole lot of speculating going on here about what happens behind closed doors. This whole conversation is sad if you ask me.
@CW & Meridith L.-Amen!!!!!
Why does Mitt get a free pass in all this? He started the whole thing. He demonstrated his total cluelessness just by saying “my wife tells me that what women really care about are economic issues.” He was basically admitting that he doesn’t see women as people, but as some sort of minority or special interest group. Why else on earth would he have to ask his wife to tell him about 50% of the electorate? What qualifies her (or any one woman) as an expert on what “women” really care about? Substitute “men” in that statement and you get how ridiculous and sexist it is.
Actually, Daisy, and everyone else…Mitt was referring to what women were telling his wife on the campaign trail, so he was not relying on his wife’s personal experience, he was talking about things women told her. Surely even a housewife can note and repeat things she’s being told,can’t she? (She went to Harvard, after all…) Or does Hilary Rosen think Ann Romney’s too dumb even for that? Also, Ann Romney was smart enough to marry well, so give her some credit and pay attention to words. They matter.
“All I’m trying to say is that managing employees who take care of the “day-to-day” details of your home(s) is probably not the sunshine and happiness picture most of us normal people think it is.”
SERIOUSLY????????
Well, Daisy’s argument that Romney’s words indicate that he thinks of women as “not people” is plumb ridiculous. Women do, as a group, have different circumstances and concerns from men and ever since we have had our voting rights protected, candidates of all stripes have recognized this and sought to address these concerns. The fact that Romney was *asked* about women’s economic issues—the fact that women’s economic issues is even a commonly-used phrase—shows that this is not a pure Romney thing. Everyone tries to get the women’s vote; this is GOOD, not sexist!
@Carolyn, I think Obama did do the right thing in distancing himself (though it wasn’t immediate), and stating once again that families should be off-limits. He made reference to staying home as a luxury, a choice not everyone can make and I don’t dispute that. But then he also attempted to put himself and his wife, both Ivy League graduates who were able to command salaries over 100K, in the category of “not having a choice”. Basically, he did what everyone is falsely accusing the Romneys of doing, offering false “me too, been there” sympathy. I respect the Obamas’ choice to be a two-working-parent family, but good golly, would they own it? If he’d said “We couldn’t choose to have a stay-home parent and also afford the private schools that our daughters have attended since preschool” even that would’ve better than his frankly shocking assertion that they simply couldn’t afford to have one of them stay home.
Really, I’ll say it again…most Republicans and Democrats both will never be able to say that they’ve been as broke as the rest of us, that they’ve faced the same struggles. That’s the nature of our current system; most people cannot afford to spend a year or better traveling the country and interviewing for the next job. And, really, even if more middle-class people did make it in politics, I don’t think it would help matters much, as empathy doesn’t make the tax code more efficient or social programs effective or jobs appear. Much the way that Palin’s experience being a mom dealing with her son’s special needs didn’t convince me that she’d make services for special needs any better—you need a workable plan, not sympathy and street cred, to make a difference. Both candidates have plans and we should really be talking about *those*.
“Should we sterilize those who you think can’t handle parenthood?” Ha ha. You jumped the shark on that one, @CC.
“you know, the Republican line of “personal responsibility” and “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” is total bullshit”
And I call that B.S. Both of my grandfathers and my DH grew up in modest circumstances but bootstrapped themselves up into the middle-class through hard work and valuing education. It CAN be done, even today, if somebody truly has the work ethic to make it happen. My DH realized as a teen flipping burgers at McDonald’s that he wanted something better for his life. So while most of the kids in his blue collar neighborhood were getting drunk and/or doing drugs and/or committing crimes, he was studying. That allowed him to win merit scholarships that covered 98% of the cost to attend Stanford. He is where he is today not because his parents were rich (far from it) but because he worked hard to make a better life for himself.
@Carolyn, you show your hand and , I’m afraid it’s not all aces. You jump to conclusions and read into my comment putting words where there are not. I am not a Republican. I am also not a Democrat. But my political affiliation matters not. I am not poor but am I not rich. I’ve lived hand to mouth. I’ve lived paycheck to paycheck. I worked hard so that I don’t have to live like that anymore. You assumed I was making stereotypes about the poor, when I never used any such word. You know what happens when we assume… and I resent that! You do a disservice to me and yourself. I am sorry that you took it personally.
Means could mean money, but it could also mean a lot of other things. My point was there are a lot of people out there that are not equipped to be parents because they are too selfish. There is not enough “personal responsibility” in this country. Just because you are biologically capable of reproducing doesn’t mean you should. It doesn’t mean that you need to have that privilege irrevocably taken away from you either. It means you need to deal with the consequences of your actions at least, or better, think first, act second and not expect someone else to fix it for you. It’s about that expectation that everything is someone else’s fault and it’s also someone else’s responsibility to fix it. I was also making the point that our children are undervalued. They are just another possession, like a TV that can be found in both the richest and poorest of homes. No, I haven’t struggled as much as some, but when my husband and I thought we were ready for kids, we weren’t really ready. Granted you’re never really ready but we waited. We changed our behavior. We wanted to be sure that our kids could be our #1 priority. So many kids of so many different backgrounds are anything but number one. More often in my experiences dealing with the ME generation of I want it all and I want it all now it is the parents who are #1 on their list. I know a lot of people too who have had a rough start in life and get handed more than their fare share of a raw deal. These are some of the most remarkable people and parents I know. They get it. They give their kids EVERYTHING they could never have dreamed of having as a kid. And they did it because they took responsibility to make a change, much like, it sounds, you did.
ITA with Buggaboo. and if you purposefully and willfully procreate children for whom you cannot provide, you are an example of the entitlement class in this country.
As far as biological imperative- good goddess, we are ADULTS and have access to birth control. I met the man I married at 15, waited until nearly 1`8 and was graduated. We used birth control faithfully while we moved out, saved money, got married (and paid for the wedding) had good insurance, bought life insurance and bought our first home. From moving out with our clothes, a bed and dresser, no appliances or living room furniture, and a cheap 2chair dinette set. And about $000 in the bank between us at 18. We KNEW we couldn’t [provide, and though we both came from poor backgrounds, we were NOT going to use entitlement programs to raise a family. So we waited 8 years not our relationship to start a family. It CAN be done. But giving a free pass to entitlement mentality negates any valid expectations that people have a brain bigger than their genitals.
@Buggablue Agreed, and way to stand up and defend your earlier comments and not let other people put words in your mouth. People are always trying to misconstrue things to paint their own picture.